Strange Maps

October 17, 2007

186 - Europe, If the Nazis Had Won

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One of the mainstays of speculative history (together with “What if the South had won the US Civil War?”) is: What would the world have looked like if the Nazis had won the Second World War? And yet I’ve never seen a map showing what the Nazis’ post-war plans (for Europe of for the world) were, neither from their own files or reconstructed by war historians.

Which is very strange, considering that the Second World War is one of the most studied conflicts in world history. Maybe that’s because the Nazis didn’t have any concrete plans for after their victory – not because they didn’t believe in it themselves, but because of the chaotic nature of Nazi governance. The institutional overlap, competition and resulting chaos in the Third Reich is a well-established historical fact that contradicts the traditional notion of Germans as careful and thorough planners and which may well have prevented a German victory.

How the world would have looked like if such a victory had occurred, is a question that has been answered often in fiction, for example in the (passable) Robert Harris novel ‘Fatherland’ and the (brilliant) Philip K. Dick book ‘The Man in the High Castle’. Harris’ book includes a map, of a 1960s Europe dominated by Germany. This Nazi state, greatly expanded towards the East, doesn’t include Alsace-Lorraine. This rather puts a dent in the map’s credibility: it’s quite unthinkable that a victorious Nazi state would not annex these territories on the Rhine’s left bank, for so long disputed between France and Germany. Dick’s book, which focuses on the Japan-dominated West Coast of the (former) USA, sadly isn’t illustrated with a map. Not my copy at least.

This map does give what seems to be a well-considered vision of a Europe-wide Nazi state as it might have emerged after a German victory. German supremacy is ‘concealed’ by the construct of Neuropa (’New Europe’), a sort of evil twin of the European Union in this universe.

• Linchpin of Neuropa is the Greater German Empire (Grossdeutsches Reich), consisting of Germany in its 1937 borders, plus Alsace-Lorraine (from France), the entire Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, the Belgian German-speaking area of Eupen-Malmédy (from Belgium), all of Austria (Ostmark in Nazi parlance), a large part of present-day Slovenia, the Sudeten areas of former Czechoslovakia, and large parts of pre-war Poland.
• Some areas are not part of the Reich, but nonetheless under direct ‘Protectorate’: Bohemia-Moravia and the Polish ‘General-Gouvernement’.
• So far, nothing deviates from the situation as it was at the height of Nazi power in Europe. Different are two Reich exclaves in the East, implying Germany won the war with Soviet Russia: Gotenland (on the Krim peninsula) and St Petersburg.
• Presumably outside the Reich in a technical sense, but still administered civilly by the NSDAP (Hitler’s National Socialist party) are large areas in the East: Estonia and Latvia, both enlarged by annexing parts of Russia, Lithuania, and Belarus.
• There are also three autonomous NSDAP areas in the west: the Netherlands, Flanders and Wallonia (those two successor-states to Belgium also gaining territory, in this case to the detriment of France).
• So far the areas under direct German control (either under the Reich or under the Party). Next in the map legend are other European states, major allies of the Nazis and “instigators of the New European Union”: Greater Finland (almost doubling in size by grabbing parts of Norway and Russia) and the Italian Social Republic, covering just the northern half of Italy but gaining the Savoy and Nice areas of France and the environs of Istria from Slovenia.
• This is where the map’s colour scheme gets a bit confusing: the states signing up to the European Declaration in 1946 and later are indicated in one of several shades of brown and green used in the legend. To the best of my visual abilities, the 1946 ones are: Norway, Denmark, France, Slovakia, (Greater) Hungary, (Greater) Croatia, (Greater) Romania and (Greater) Bulgaria – those last four Balkan states enlarged at the expense their neighbours (sometimes including each other).
• A second wave of member states signing the European Declaration in 1951 are (again, as far as I can see): Spain (also holding on to its possessions in Morocco), (Little) Serbia, Greece (losing part of Macedonia to Bulgaria and also some territory to Albania, but retaining an enclave at the Turkish border) and Ukraine, which, having lost some land to Romania and the General-Gouvernement, is extended eastward all the way to Saratov.
• Later in the 1950s, Albania (enlarged also with a good part of Kosovo) joins the European Declaration.
• A third wave of Neuropa members joins in the 1960s: Portugal, Montenegro, and several formerly Soviet areas in or near the Caucasus: Kuban, Kalmykia, Georgia (enlarged with North Ossetia), Armenia and Azerbaijan.
• In the 1970s, three new states join: Dagestan in the Caucasus, and Udmurtia and Volga-Tatarstan further north.
• Incorporated in Neuropa, but without voting rights are the areas of Moskova and an area in the Caucasus, somewhat conforming to where Chechnya is now (maybe corresponding with the former, larger Soviet autonomous area of Chechnya-Ingushetia).

This map was sent to me by Bruno De Cordier and is taken here from the Finnish site valtakunta.eu, dedicated to illustrating the parallel universe in which the Nazis have won the war.

Unfortunately mainly in Finnish, it’s impossible (for a non-Finnophone like me, anyway) to determine which is the POD (point of divergence) of this timeline: what was the turning point allowing the Nazis to win the war?

99 Comments »

  1. Colin McEvedy’s Penguin Atlas of Recent History shows German civil administrative divisions during WW2. They are similar to what is seen on this map. Unfortunately, I do not have it handy.

    Comment by Leo Petr — October 17, 2007 @

  2. The site does have a summary in English, which states that there is no specific POD, but imagines a world where, in short, Hitler and his government were smarter and steadier.

    Comment by Minivet — October 17, 2007 @

  3. Actually, several maps exist. The Nazis left extensive plans for the postwar-period, right down to domestic architecture, so alternate historians have found it rather easy to map them. An excellent portrayal, map included, is Robert Harris’s Fatherland. If you want something a little more scholarly, check out the forum at alternatehistory.com. We have an entire thread devoted to Nazi victory maps.

    As for the map itself, it’s a pretty good interpretation, though I doubt the Nazis would allow as many states in Eastern Europe to be independent.

    Comment by Brad — October 17, 2007 @

  4. Presumably there was a negotiated peace in WWII — Britain is shaded grey, which isn’t in the key and so would seem to be independent. Same for South Italy and the remnants of the USSR (SSSR). I’d guess that the German offensives in Russia in 1941 and 1942 were much more successful (capturing Moscow and Stalingrad — Zarizyn on this map), but the Nazis didn’t have the resources to finish the job, and got bogged down. The Western Allies land in Italy, Mussolini is deposed (and reinstated by the Nazis in the Italian Social Republic, as per our timeline), but the Germans hold them north of Rome, and D-Day is a failure (or perhaps never happened). So after that, maybe after a year or so of stalemate, the Allies give up trying to win back Europe, and recognise the German changes to the map of Europe …

    Comment by Brett Holman — October 17, 2007 @

  5. I thought Hitler had planned to turn Moscow into a lake. Maybe, this was his ideao only by the end of WW2, when Soviet troops were appraching Berlin.

    Comment by Stefan — October 17, 2007 @

  6. There are some fairly obvious errors in this map which make me doubt the research of whoever put it together.
    Notably, Germany annexed Czechia before the war began, and Libya was a colonial possession of Italy from 1911. For that matter, Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco would have been administered either directly by the Germans, or through their Vichy puppets.

    Comment by Loki — October 17, 2007 @

  7. @Loki: I don’t think that whoever created the map was interested in the (African) colonies. The only exception show is the northern coast of Morocco, but keep in mind that even today Ceuta and Melilla are part of the Spanish kingdom: here there is just an enlargement of the enclaves to get a continuous strip of land.
    It’s stranger that the author chose to left Italy divided and Albania (annexed in 1939) independent, but with Dodecanesus given to Northern Italy.

    Comment by .mau. — October 17, 2007 @

  8. @Loki: I don’t think that whoever created the map was interested in the (African) colonies. The only exception show is the northern coast of Morocco, but keep in mind that even today Ceuta and Melilla are part of the Spanish kingdom: here there is just an enlargement of the enclaves to get a continuous strip of land.
    It’s stranger that the author chose to left Italy divided and Albania (annexed in 1939) independent, but with Dodecanesus given to Northern Italy.

    Comment by .mau. — October 17, 2007 @

  9. There´s a book called Virtual History (I can´t remember the title exactly, but its author is Nigel Townsend). It´s really good. The author was my teacher at college in Spain and recommended us the book. The hipotetic situation if nazis would have won the II war isn´t the one. There´s other really interesting stories

    Comment by Mirarrosa — October 17, 2007 @

  10. Interesting map. However, I don’t think the idea of a divided Italy is very plausible, and I don’t understand why Finland has gained so much on Norway. The Norwegians were a favorite people of the Nazis, who saw them as a kind of proto-germannic people. Also, Norway was captured fairly early in the war.Because of this, I would not think a victorious Nazi-germany would allow Finland to capture Norwegian territory.

    I also cannot quite believe that Sweden has managed to stay neutral in this scenario.Pressed by Nazi states from both sides, how could they?

    Comment by sungame — October 17, 2007 @

  11. i like the idea..it means gerry kick an american but…

    Comment by alaslangit — October 17, 2007 @

  12. A novel called Making History by Stephen Fry covers the hypothetical question. He includes the effect of a Nazi win has over the USA too.

    Comment by James — October 17, 2007 @

  13. It’s not hard to understand most of these choices.

    As I already pointed out, Italy being partitioned points to a stalemate and negotiated peace after 1944. The Italian Social Republic really existed, and was created after the Allied invasion of Italy, so obviously that also happened in this timeline. Italy’s African colonies had already been captured by the Allies by that time, so that’s why it doesn’t have those any more. The Dodecanese Islands were not liberated until the end of the war, so that’s why they are still Italian here. Albania, I don’t know about that one. And I agree that Sweden (and Switzerland, not so much Ireland, also marked in white) would have a hard time keeping out of the New Order altogether.

    As for Finland, sure the Germans like their fellow Nordics, but presumably they liked countries who actually fought on their side more than they liked countries who fought against them! But since it’s from a Finnish website, a bit of wishful thinking might come into it too.

    @9: I think the author was Niall Ferguson?

    Comment by Brett Holman — October 17, 2007 @

  14. Ireland is in white there, but I wonder would we the Irish have joined an alternate European Union. I think we would have given the right circumstances.

    Comment by Donncha — October 17, 2007 @

  15. [...] 186 - <b>Europe</b>, If the Nazis Had Won [...]

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  16. [...] 186 - <b>Europe</b>, If the Nazis Had Won [...]

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  17. @Brett: in 1944 Dodecanese Islands (like Süd-Tirol, which is the part of Italy with German-speaking people) were under direct Germany domain, however; so it made sense that they remained in Great Germany after the end of the War.

    Comment by .mau. — October 17, 2007 @

  18. Yes, the Germans did control them at the end of our WWII, because they moved in when the Italians collapsed. But they are the same colour as the Italian Social Republic on this map so I assume Germany returned them to Mussolini at some point (in the alternate history!)

    Ooh, more maps linked from here.

    Comment by Brett Holman — October 17, 2007 @

  19. [...] 186 - <b>Europe</b>, If the Nazis Had Won [...]

    Pingback by centerwinks » Blog Archive » Latest news — October 17, 2007 @

  20. Thank you for your interest in my maps! I’ll try to answer quickly to few of your questions.

    History of Albania during the WWII is a murky one. It regained independence in 1943, with a nationalist goverement who got backing from Berlin, but they intended to declare neutrality as soon as possible - and still hold on areas annexed to Albania during Italian rule, mainly Kosovo. Albania also tried to hold on a puppet state of “Principality of Pindos”, established in 1941 to mountainous Greek areas by aromanian minority.

    Norwegians were not very well liked by German occupation goverment. Quisling was a burden; they never wanted him to grab power in Norway, because it alienated norwegian people from Germany. Quisling dreamed of a “Greater Norway”, with Kola peninsula added, but he was quickly rebuffed from Berlin. in 1942, Hitler offered all kinds of amenities to Finland, because of its importance in the northern front. He pledged Finland the right to annex Eastern Karelia and Kola peninsula, and even more, just to keep the Finnish army fighting. Northern Norway (Ruija) is inhabited by finnish-speaking people, and the inclusion of these areas to “Greater Finland” was planned in Helsinki.

    Comment by Sampsa Rydman — October 17, 2007 @

  21. More my maps here:

    http://www.valtakunta.eu/historia/rauha1943.html

    Greater Germany, 1984:
    http://www.valtakunta.eu/politiikka/newgermany.jpg

    Comment by Sampsa Rydman — October 17, 2007 @

  22. I love the maps on your site, Sampsa. I’d nitpick over the Nazis failure to annex Denmark, the Netherlands and Belgium, as well as large parts of western Ukraine, but that aside, great work. You should translate the text into English, I’d love to read it (my Finnish begins with ‘Paiva!’ and ends with ‘Kiitos’, sadly).

    Comment by Paul — October 17, 2007 @

  23. Just wanted to add my compliments for the excellent work on the website & maps! I agree with Paul, please translate the rest if you can!

    Comment by tps — October 17, 2007 @

  24. [...] another Strange Map for you–this one an imagining of what Europe would have looked like if Germany had won the [...]

    Pingback by Historical Methods » Blog Archive » If The War Had Turned Out Differently — October 17, 2007 @

  25. [...] another Strange Map for you–this one an imagining of what Europe would have looked like if Germany had won the [...]

    Pingback by Nationalism in Eastern Europe » Blog Archive » If The War Had Turned Out Differently — October 17, 2007 @

  26. [...] another Strange Map for you–this one an imagining of what Europe would have looked like if Germany had won the [...]

    Pingback by East European Nationalism and Communism » Blog Archive » If The War Had Turned Out Differently — October 17, 2007 @

  27. Even if the Nazis had won the circle would have in such a way as to be at a point it presently is,what happed if China and Russia became communist and completely red at that.arn’t these counties now pursueing capitalism in its worse form than others,any thing unnatural would give way to the natural thing eventually.

    Comment by krsnakhandelwal — October 17, 2007 @

  28. [...] 186 - <b>Europe</b>, If the Nazis Had Won [...]

    Pingback by channelqz » Blog Archive » Late breaking news — October 17, 2007 @

  29. About Alsace (I live there) : Germans DID annex Alsace-Lorraine as soon as France was defeated. Young men for m Alsace-Lorraine were forced to fight in the Wehrmacht… So Harris’ book is false.

    BTW, I love this site.

    Comment by Krysztof von Murphy — October 17, 2007 @

  30. [...] 186 - <b>Europe</b>, If the Nazis Had Won [...]

    Pingback by daquicker » Blog Archive » Late breaking news — October 17, 2007 @

  31. there is an ongoing (inofficial?) translation project at http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=263106

    Comment by Vaang — October 18, 2007 @

  32. Requires no Manhattan Project at minimum - since the division of Italy indicates that the US is in the war, Germany must 1. crush the USSR (unlikely) 2. successfully resist a US landing on the continent (unlikely even if the USSR is out of the fight, impossible otherwise) and 3. avoid getting nuked into rubble.

    Nice map, but I think “Germanics” such as the Dutch are likely to be incorporated directly into the Reich - unless Hitler dies soon after war’s end and his successor has rather different ideas re who qualifies as “German” (along with rather different ideas re the Slavs, which at the best would be a slave race in German-settled Ukraine, Poland - there would be no such thing as a Ukranian state.)

    Bruce

    Comment by B Munro — October 18, 2007 @

  33. Well, yes, B Munro, the whole concept of Germany winning the war after invading the USSR seems rather unlikely.

    But if you are willing to accept German victory as a theoretical experiment, the map seems rather plausible. However, you might be right about the racial issues concerning “slavic” countries like Ukraine and Poland.

    On the other hand, the Nazi leaders were quite divided on racial ideology. Sure, they all played along with Hitler’s ideas, but while the racial theories were ideologically motivated for some, they were just a tool for others. So if the least racist (if you can actually write that about Nazis) factions seized power, presumably after Hitler’s death, the map, once again, seems more plausible.

    Comment by sungame — October 18, 2007 @

  34. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suggest that Italy be partitioned. After all, it was only unified less than a hundred years previously. And if the Lega Nord got their way, it would be divided so those “filthy, lazy” southerners stopped being such a drain on the economy (their words, not mine).

    Btw, I’m reading the Robert Harris book at the moment and it’s a really good, plausible read. I don’t think we should discount it because of one minor piece of cartography that is totally unrelated to the story.

    Comment by jonmorris — October 18, 2007 @

  35. I’m quite sure that the (unattributed) source of this map Joaquín de Salas: See “LIVING SPACE (”LEBENSRAUM”): Germany and Nationalist Europe 1939-1942 (3)” at http://www.terra.es/personal7/jqvaraderey/index.htm and especially http://www.terra.es/personal7/jqvaraderey/fascist.htm

    Comment by António Martins-Tuválkin — October 18, 2007 @

  36. “Udmurtia” and “Volga-Tataria” were moved some 1000 km SW of where they actually exist. Granted that such moves were not unheard of even *here* (cp. Jewish homeland at the lower Amur!), and surely Tatars are/were spread in an area much wider than current Tatarstan, but is looks a bit far-fechted.

    I’m also surprised that the Saratov area wasn’t made a Reich enclave: even the Soviet recognized the local German majority.

    Comment by António Martins-Tuválkin — October 18, 2007 @

  37. Jonmorris: Italy has been devided in the past, yes, and it might be again, but I doubt that the Nazis would be content with controlling half of it.

    Comment by sungame — October 18, 2007 @

  38. “But if you are willing to accept German victory as a theoretical experiment…”

    Well, yes, but arguing about these things is half the fun for those of us into Alternate History.

    Bruce

    Comment by B Munro — October 18, 2007 @

  39. @33, 37:

    But it’s not a German victory. It’s a stalemate. That’s why it’s not a matter of the Nazis (or the Allies) allowing Italy to be partitioned: it was the best either side could achieve.

    @35:

    Well spotted, I think you’re right.

    Comment by Brett Holman — October 19, 2007 @

  40. [...] Vairāk variet uzzināt šeit! [...]

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  41. There are lots of thing that led to Germany’s defeat in WWII. Among the things under their control: 1) They started out without any long range, 4 engine heavy bombers. You cant pound an enemy in Russia or across the channel into chunky salsa without a way to get there. 2) Hitler kept making stupid decisions instead of letting the generals who knew better do it. They’ll land at Calais! Strap bombs on the jet fighter! Produce a few wonder weapons instead of a bunch of weapons that were good enough to get the job done. Hitler was great at rallying the troops but should have kept his mouth shut when the grownup generals were making plans. 3) Who in the hell attacks Great Britain and Russia AT THE SAME TIME? Talk about compensating! 4) Lack of a powerful naval fleet. Battleships are ok but to project power and, say, sink supply ships in the atlantic, you need carriers and planes. U-boats are nice but they cant project power. Germany was doomed from the start… thank god.

    Comment by Hannover Fisk — October 19, 2007 @

  42. figli di….

    Comment by riccardo — October 19, 2007 @

  43. [...] (for Europe of for the world) were, neither from their own files or reconstructed by war historians.read more | digg [...]

    Pingback by travel blog » Blog Archive » Map of Europe, If the Nazis Had Won — October 19, 2007 @

  44. Funny! Israel is on the map and the wrong shape!

    Comment by Ray — October 19, 2007 @

  45. Not so funny. “Israel” is the shape of the Palestine Mandate. Without a massive influx of Ashkenazi from post-war Europe, the 1949 war of independence and subsequent partition never occurs.

    Comment by Carl — October 19, 2007 @

  46. Excuse me, you forgot my country, Iceland… which is very much a part of Europe.

    Comment by Andri — October 19, 2007 @

  47. I think any lasting cease fire negotiations between the British and the Germans would have included the reunification of Ireland. Ireland had been a neutral country during the war. The Germans had supplied the IRA with arms. What better way for the Germans to humiliate the British than to strip away Northern Ireland. Perhaps in return Ireland would allow the Germans to stage forces for an invasion of Britain. It is much easier invading across the Irsh Sea than across the Channel.

    Comment by Sean — October 19, 2007 @

  48. Europe, If the Nazis Had Won

    This story has been submitted to Stirrdup. Your support can help it become hot.

    Trackback by Support this story on Stirrdup — October 19, 2007 @

  49. [...] Degrees: the ones that don’t make sense via Digg New Star Trek; Sylar = Spock? via Digg If the Nazis had won… via [...]

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  50. [...] 186 - Europe, If the Nazis Had Won « strange maps For all those who want to split Belgium (tags: history maps war) [...]

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  51. Andri, Iceland appears to be covered by the legend.

    Anyway, I doubt Iceland would be affected much by the Axis win. I think they sat WWII out.

    Comment by Darrel Jones — October 19, 2007 @

  52. Hi, just skimmed through this so I don’t know if it’s addressed yet, but I don’t see why you still have the Salo Republic separate from South Italy. It seems like the map has the Axis having a complete and total victory over the Allies. In that scenario, the ISR probably would not even have needed to be formed in the first place, and it certainly would not be kept separate from South Italy afterwards.

    Comment by Eddie — October 20, 2007 @

  53. [...] Nazi Europe Tags: No Tags . [...]

    Pingback by 6731 at Ochblog — October 20, 2007 @

  54. [...] o mapa da Europa caso os nazistas tivessem ganho a Segunda Grande Guerra [...]

    Pingback by Mapas — October 20, 2007 @

  55. 10/20th/2007..SATURDAY.

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    Realizing this..Immutible FACT…The “FLAMIN’ HUNS” have Rebuilt ECONOMICALLY, Socially, Physically,Somewhat — ‘Emotionally’.. To A Greater ‘HIGHER-PLATEAU ‘ Than It WAS Under the FUHRHER. Sadly…If One Views The Stabilization of the DEUTCHE- MARK On the Consistant Clear Trading in the Commodity Of ‘GOLD”, in the Finantual Markets…GLOBALL Though,THE GERMANS Lost Prestige’ & ‘REAL-Estate’ During and After WWII They HAVE Gained BACK $$$ALL$$$ That WAS Lost — MONETARILY !! Thank You, and Good Night …From the “MUTUAL Radio Network”,LTD..

    Comment by billperks5 — October 20, 2007 @

  56. @ billperks5:
    I think it’s spelled “Dummkopf”.

    Comment by strangemaps — October 20, 2007 @

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  60. It’s a major question, also, what Germany would’ve done with the German-speaking parts of Switzerland, which would’ve been completely surrounded. The 5 year mobilization alone during WW2 was enough to put a serious strain on the country’s human resources - if there had been an invasion, the plan was to retreat to the mountains, giving the plains to Germany.

    Comment by Matt Tomich — October 21, 2007 @

  61. Don’t trust Graham

    Comment by maddad — October 21, 2007 @

  62. Had Hitler’s Nazi’s won WWII, the European nations would have been subsumed in a non-democratic European state or union. We could have saved a lot of time and wasted lives…

    Comment by Sven — October 22, 2007 @

  63. I guess I am not seeing that Finland has “so much” of Norway, when you look at modern maps and compare the territory, I mean.

    Also, remember that Finland lost large chunks of Karelia during the war so this map just adds to what would *not* have been lost. Theoretically, I mean.

    N.B. I am actually from Finland.

    Comment by mr — October 22, 2007 @

  64. [...] (for Europe of for the world) were, neither from their own files or reconstructed by war historians.read more | digg [...]

    Pingback by top trends » Blog Archive » Map of Europe, If the Nazis Had Won — October 22, 2007 @

  65. mr.October: No, Finland has not won very much of Norway in this scenario, and after other comments here, I have come to believe that it is entirely plausible that the Nazis would have rewarded them some territory. I know Finland lost large chunks of Karelen in the war in real life, but has that happened in this map? (I ask because I am not an expert on Karelen, and cannot see from this map whether that has happened in this scenario).

    And in a scenario where Germany has won the war, wouldn’t it be reasonable to think that these parts would be ruled either directly by Germany, or by Finland?

    Comment by sungame — October 23, 2007 @

  66. The scenario as pictured on this map and on Sampsa Rydman’s excellent site is a very nicely worked out thought experiment. Reality would be much harsher though. The Nazis saw the Fins as part of the “yellow hordes from the east” and therefore as an inferior race. The Nazi policy would be to contain and ultimately eradicate the Fins rather than to let them flourish. It would be more likely that in the end Finland would become settled with Swedes and Norwegians and the Fins would be forced into a “protectorate”.
    I came across these maps for Nazi plans for Europe in German and English

    Comment by Ratagosk — October 24, 2007 @

  67. [...] По мотивам Europe, If the Nazis Had Won [...]

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  68. Looking at Sampsa’s other maps (the links he posted here in the comments), it becomes obvious what the point of departure is. His map of 1941-42 shows that Operation Barbarossa succeeded in taking Moscow, but that Soviet forces are still around Kiev. Clearly, Hitler did not order Army Group Center south towards Kiev in July-Spetember 1941. Instead, it continued east towards Moscow and captured the city before winter.

    Losing Moscow did not knock the Soviet Union out of the war, but it was a severe enough loss that the Germans were successful in 1942 in taking Stalingrad and the Caucasus.

    The war in the west was unaffected. Rommel was still defeated at El Alamein, and Americans landed in North Africa in late 1942. The Brits and Yanks pushed Germans out of North Africa (explaining why the Nazis have no African lands on the map) and invade Italy in 1943.

    The 1944-45 map still show the Allied invasion of France (Overlord and Dragoon) but do not show any light blue territory. It seems that the invasion failed. Presumably, at this time with the failure to liberate France and a weak USSR, the Allies made a negotiated peace that kept Allied gains (Southern Italy and Africa).

    It’s a fairly plausible scenario, except that a Nazi capture of Moscow might have changed Western Allied strategy immensely. The Americans wanted to invade France, not North Africa, in 1942, but the British convinced the US otherwise. Instead, the Allies might have invaded France as early as 1942, but with no guarantee of victory.

    The Nazis certainly won the war, but it was not a complete victory like some people are assuming here. The British Empire still exists, and the US still defeats Japan in the Pacific and is allied with Chiang Kai-Shek’s China. The Anglo-American alliance still appears to stand, and the German Reich is being diplomatically “normalized.” An awful result to be sure, but not complete world domination.

    I don’t think there is much to argue about whether Greater Germany annexed this country or not. Denmark, Holland, etc. would all be lead by Nazi collaborators, and the “Nazi EU” would settle most questions in the favor of Germany anyway. Also, it is important to note that the countries in the East - Ukraine, Moscow, Kuban, etc. would not be Slavic controlled lands. They would have been settled by German pioneers to serve as overlords to serf Slavs. This is the Nazi’s Lebensraum.

    Comment by Chris Durnell — October 25, 2007 @

  69. [...] 186 - Europe, If the Nazis Had Won « strange maps [...]

    Pingback by del.icio.us bookmarks for December 25th through October 25th | episcopophagous — October 26, 2007 @

  70. Mapa de la Europa actual, si los nazis hubiesen ganado la Segunda Guerra Mundial

    Una de las principales cuestiones formuladas en historia especulativa es ¿Qué habría pasado si los nazis hubiesen ganado la Segunda Guerra Mundial? Aunque es un tema que ha sido discutido ampliamente, nunca había visto un mapa que reflejara como ha…

    Trackback by meneame.net — October 26, 2007 @

  71. http://500quejas.com

    Comment by 500quejas.com — October 27, 2007 @

  72. Fortunately this is not the actual Europe’s map

    http://www.juzamdjinn.blogspot.com

    Comment by duhu — October 28, 2007 @

  73. [...] here for more This entry was posted on Sunday, October 28th, 2007 at 5:00 am and is filed under europe. [...]

    Pingback by swiftda » Blog Archive » Comment on 186 - Europe, If the Nazis Had Won by duhu — October 28, 2007 @

  74. well, accoring to my calculations.
    this website gives out entirly WRONG information. I am a 3.29552713 mathimatical genius. don’t try to trick my again.
    thanks,
    steve urckel

    Comment by fabio machinsolb — November 6, 2007 @

  75. I actually seem a map of what the Nazis wanted to do with Europe. In this map Europe would be divided into racial/ethnic/linguistic/historic lines. For example, Galicia, Brittany, and the Basque countries would have their own government. Savoy would also be its own country. Italy would be split in two, and all ethic German areas would be incorporated into greater Germany.
    If Hitler had been assassinated after France was occupied, it is plausible that the Germans would have kept Continental Europe in control. I just can’t believe their lack of long-distance bombers.

    Comment by Paul — November 7, 2007 @

  76. [...]                        Map of Europe if Hitler had won [...]

    Pingback by 18 November - WordPress PoliSci II « oldephartteintraining — November 18, 2007 @

  77. [...] This map does give what seems to be a well-considered vision of a Europe-wide Nazi state as it might have emerged after a German victory. German supremacy is ‘concealed’ by the construct of Neuropa (’New Europe’), a sort of evil twin of the European Union in this universe. [...]

    Pingback by Europe, If the Nazis Had Won at frybe.net — November 29, 2007 @

  78. ΤΙ ΜΑΛΑΚΙΕΣ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΑΥΤΕΣ;

    Comment by deon — December 19, 2007 @

  79. [...] Mondo. Abbiamo la mappa di come sarebbe potuta essere l’Europa se avessero vinto in nazisti (qui), quella dei suffissi del web (qui) o ancora quella con il mondo invertito (qui) o quella con [...]

    Pingback by Strange Maps, le mappe più strane « Surus — December 26, 2007 @

  80. And finally Antwerp will be the Capital of Flanders! :)

    Comment by AntwerpForCapital — December 27, 2007 @

  81. Now there is an English version of the map and its explanation as well!

    http://www.valtakunta.eu/blog/?p=21

    Comment by taivaansusi — January 20, 2008 @

  82. HISTORY SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Comment by HEATHER — January 25, 2008 @

  83. The Spain actually did hold the continous strip of land along the North Moroccan coast before and during the War so no expansion there.

    Comment by Patrick — February 3, 2008 @

  84. One possibility would be that Germany would be the Dominant power in Europe after a peace deal with Britain and the USA. Thus the Cold war could still have been “fought” against Germany instead of Russia.

    I do not see the War so much as one against facism. The Allies supported coups in several countries such as Amin in Uganda, and Pinochet in Chile where the previous leaders had socialist leanings. I do not find it impossible for Hitler to have fought with the British and French aginst Stalin.

    The lands that would certainly be lost to Germany would be the “mandates” taken after WW1: Togo (Britain and France) Taningika (British) and Namibia from South Africa.

    Comment by Patrick — February 3, 2008 @

  85. its really a strange map… It looks amazing! Thanks for working and sharing it..

    Comment by navtej kohli — February 7, 2008 @

  86. [...] constrangido porque alguém ia te dar mais um beijinho no rosto e você já tinha se afastado?) , mapa de como seria a Europa caso os nazistas tivessem ganhado a Segunda Guerra, mapa das regiões onde a internet é censurada, mapa dos times de baseball americanos, mapa de [...]

    Pingback by Lápis Raro » Estranhas cartografias. — February 14, 2008 @

  87. THIS SUCKSS

    Comment by lal — April 7, 2008 @

  88. [...] Sur Strangemaps. [...]

    Pingback by I like your style » Neuropa : if the nazis had won — April 16, 2008 @

  89. There is a English version of the map here:

    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=263106

    Comment by fisk — April 18, 2008 @

  90. Even if Hitler had defeated the soviet union, it is unlikely he could have made peace with the western alllies. Even if airpower from the germans had been diverted after defeating the Soviet Union to bomb Great Britain, the US large scale bombings on german cities, bases and supplies were crippling. A stalemate may have been recognised if the Germans aquired the a-bomb, and the allies were aware of this. A treaty may have been signed by the powers and Italy would of been divided as it is in the map, after the allies had landed there during the war, and would possibly still be stationed there, as detterents to any german expantion southwards towards north africa.

    Comment by th83 — April 19, 2008 @

  91. The Axis Powers planned to divide the USA and Canada into three slices. Their proposed map of the new Japanese, Italian and German Empires is found in most decent world atlases. I have yet to see it anywhere on the internet…

    Comment by cousinkix1953 — April 29, 2008 @

  92. I found the current Führer, and I think I recognize him :)

    http://www.valtakunta.eu/politiikka/ehrl.html

    Comment by Johan — May 12, 2008 @

  93. автор статьи - еврей?

    Comment by L@meR — May 21, 2008 @

  94. [...] credit: Strange Maps. If you enjoy maps, I highly recommend a visit. Link leads to a post detailing the map above. [...]

    Pingback by ~– › Balancing Acts: What Nazis, Communists, Americans, Iran and Roger Federer have in common — June 13, 2008 @

  95. Probably several ways Hitler could have won WW2
    1)He developed an A-bomb, at least by mid 1944, as the US were conducting the Normandy landings. he nukes New York and maybe one other major US city, the USA leaves the war.
    2) Japan didn’t do Pearl harbour, at least not till Hitler had invaded the UK, and with them out of the way, succesfully occupied weatern Russia, hopefully for him the surrender of the UK wouldnt have brought the US into the war anyway.
    3) The Luftwaffe didn’t bother with London but kept up smashing the RAF airfields, till the RAF couldn’t stop a Nazi invasion, as it lost the Battle of Britain.
    4) A Jew in about 1960 invented a time machine, went back to 1920 and killed Hitler. Someone else with more military talent was then leader of an aggressive and resentful Germany as the 1930s recession bit, and this other leader was more successful in WW2.

    Comment by Hillary Shaw — June 29, 2008 @

  96. Also 5) Hitler doesn’t persecute the Jews, from the 1930s on, meaning many don’t flee to the USA, taking their financial and technological expertise with them. Then Germany ahs more weaponry and raw materials and is stronger in 1939.

    Comment by Hillary Shaw — June 29, 2008 @

  97. If Hitler had not declared war on the USA following Pearl Harbour the help that the neutral USA was giving in the North Atlantic may not have remained possible as all effort would have been diverted to the Pacific.

    As for the time machine hypothesis, see Stephen Fry’s novel “Making History” where Hitler is removed from history - and a rational leader takes his place.

    Comment by Martin Watts — June 29, 2008 @

  98. Some portions of this map a very naïve to say the least, and betray a lack of background knowledge. They show alleged postwar borders which are “snapshots” from the wartime, when many new borders were created all the time, but which usually had a highly provisional character.
    One major flaw is Italy and South Tyrol. A divided Italy merely reflects the situation of 1943, with Mussolini overthrown, the South switching into the Allied camp, and Mussolini being reestablished in the Italian Socialist Republic of Salo.
    But if Germany had won the war there would have been no reason whatsoever for a divided Italy; it would simply have become another satellite state (perhaps under Mussolini, perhaps not).
    Moreover, a victorious Germany would of course have seized German South Tyrol. Hitler had renounced the South Tyrolean territory (a popular revisionist claim from the interwar period) because he considered this a necessary sacrifice in order to win Fascist Italy under Mussolini as an ally. The rationale behind the renunciation of South Tyrol had thus become redundant in 1943, with Mussolini disempowered and Italy having switched sides, which is why Germany de facto annexed South Tyrol as well as the Adriatic Littoral as immediate response to the Italian capitulation.

    Comment by Thomas Grischany — July 30, 2008 @

  99. [...] (for Europe of for the world) were, neither from their own files or reconstructed by war historians.read more | digg [...]

    Pingback by Web for money blog » Map of Europe, If the Nazis Had Won — August 13, 2008 @

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