Strange Maps

November 17, 2008

331 – East and West: Never the Twain Shall Meet?

Filed under: Uncategorized — strangemaps @ 10:58 pm

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eastwestbugs
 
If you’re American, geographically inclined and a bit of a stickler, this cartographic incongruity is a bit of an annoyance. From the US, the shortest route to what’s conventionally called ‘the East’ is in fact via the west. Going in that direction, you’ll hit the ‘Far East’ before you’re in the ‘Middle East’. And Europe, or at least that part usually included in ‘the West’, lies due east. So East is west, and West is east, in blatant contradiction of what’s probably Rudyard Kipling’s most famous line of verse:
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Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet
 
This opening line of The Ballad of East and West is often quoted to underline some insurmountable difference between the two hemispheres. It has almost invariably been misused. Taken as a whole, the Ballad has a subtler message than the one implied in this single verse. It attributes the gap between the two cultures more to nurture than nature. The entire couplet (which also closes the poem) reads:
 

Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet

Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great Judgment Seat;

But there is neither East nor West, Border nor Breed nor Birth,

When two strong men stand face to face, tho’ they come from the ends of the earth!

 
The poem dates from 1889 and is set in the British Raj. At least here the context is pretty clear: Britain is the West, India the East. But definitions of ’East’ and ‘West’ vary greatly throughout history – and remain fluid. To stick to the British perspective of the poem, where did (and where does) the East begin? The Berlin Wall? Istanbul? The Middle East? Persia? The Indus River? Or at the Greenwich Meridian, placing London in both the eastern and western hemispheres?
 
As it turns out, a general definition for what is East and where West is, one that transcends place and time, is impossible to formulate. This is because both terms are ambiguous to start with. The word West derives from an Proto-Indo-European root [*wes-] that signifies a downward movement, hence associated with the setting sun (cf. Latin vesper, from the same root and meaning both ‘evening’ and ‘West’). The Proto-Indo-European root for East is [*aus-], which has the opposite meaning, i.e. an upward movement (of the sun), dawn.
 
As those etymologies suggest, East and West are but a matter of perspective. East is where the sun rises, West where it sets – as viewed from wherever you are. Which, incidentally, also means that it’s essentially impossible to be ‘in’ the East or West, as both aren’t fixed places, but shift with the horizon.
 
Nevertheless, ‘East’ and ‘West’ have been embedded in our topographies ever since civilisations started naming the world around them. Take Europe for example. The name quite possibly derives from the Phoenician word ereb, meaning ’setting’ (as in ’setting sun’), as it lay to the west of Phoenicia (present-day Lebanon, more or less). Similarly, the term Maghreb, used to describe the North African region at the western edge of the Arab world (i.e. Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia), is Arab for ’sunset’ or ‘western’, as that is indeed their position from a peninsularly Arab point of view.
 
Point of view is crucial, of course. East and West only exist in relation to someplace else. For many centuries, Europe was the vantage point from which the world was discovered, viewed and named. Columbus sailed west to arrive East in India, but instead stumbled on a new continent. It took a while for the confusion to lift, so the first name for America was the Indies, from 1555 on shifting to West Indies (when the mistake became increasingly apparent). About four decades later, the original Indies (i.e. India and South East Asia) started to be called the East Indies – to distinguish them more clearly from the West Indies. East and West were defined relative to Europe. Or more precisely Western Europe, for even eastern Germans and Balts were called easterlings by mediaeval (Western) chroniclers.
 
That East-West divide within Europe would harden from the beginning of the 20th century, with ‘the West’ used in a geopolitical sense from World War I, denoting the Allies (Britain, France, Italy) as opposed to Germany and Austria-Hungary (although they were known as the Central Powers, not the Eastern ones). ‘The West’, in opposition to the Soviet Union, was first used in 1918, ’the East’ as in the Communist Eastern part of Europe was first recorded in 1951.
 
During the Cold War, ‘the West’ was pretty clearly delineated, including all the NATO members (plus countries economically and culturally close to that alliance’s shared ideals, i.e. Sweden, Switzerland and Austria, but even Australia and New Zealand). ‘The East’, concurrently, consisted of the Warsaw Pact and affiliated Communist societies: China (”The East is Red”), North Korea, Vietnam.
 
The fact that the Cold War is over, not to mention the continuously diminishing global impact of Europe, will continue to chip away at the still dominant eurocentric toponymy of the world. In Australia, that ‘western outpost’ in the Pacific, ties with the ‘mother country’ (and Europe as a whole) have become so distant that Ozzies have begun referring to countries such as Indonesia, China and Japan not as the Far East, but as the Near North.
 
Maybe the same will happen one day in the US, when Europe will no longer be the West but (with a nod to Don Rumsfeld and Europe’s pensioner boom) the Old East and East Asia perhaps will be the New West. Not forgetting that the Chinese have never thought of themselves as eastern or western but, of course, the Middle Kingdom
 
This map was sent in by Dennis J. Brennan, Sara Harrison, Kristin Kopf, and can be found here at the rather fantastic xkcd.com, ”a webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language”, quoted before on this blog for its amusing map of online communities.

125 Comments »

  1. Great post outlining the care one must take when using such relative terms such as ‘West’ and ‘East’. However, I believe Jerusalem surely deserves at least one mention. From my understanding, the city of Jerusalem serves as the center point that the terms ‘West’ and ‘East’ are relative to. Indeed, a central aspect of the Judeo-Christian faith is that Jerusalem is the ‘center of the world’, so its role as such in cartographic terms is understandable.

    Comment by Saket — November 18, 2008 @ 12:02 am

  2. I spotted this the other day on XKCD, I was hoping it’d make it here.

    I’ve never (as an Australian) heard the term “near north” used. The more generic “Asia-Pacific Region” seems quite common, though…

    Interesting points about the use of east & west being dependent on the observer.

    Comment by wayne — November 18, 2008 @ 1:28 am

  3. OK fist off, i don’t think that European influence in the world has diminished, if anything it has matured in that European countries don’t need to throw their weight around as much as some countries I could care to mention and their more ready to resolve thing through diplomacy. Which, I’d like to point out, is not a weakness.
    Secondly, i don’t think Australia’s links with “Europe” (it really would be more accurate to say Britain) are weakening; it’s more like Australia is becoming more of its own country, as is happening in all nations in the Anglo-sphere (even states still in the Union).The whole “Near North” sounds more like traditional Ozzie pragmatism than the erosion of the country’s cultural roots.

    Comment by Unlucky Irish — November 18, 2008 @ 1:35 am

  4. This reminds me of a point I heard made by Amartya Sen.

    He was talking about the geographic metaphors we use to distinguish between the “developed” and “underdeveloped” parts of the world.

    The British colonial way was to refer to “East and West”, or London vs. India, while the French colonial way was to refer to “North and South”, or Paris vs. Africa. Sen observed, drily, that the French won.

    More at: http://aprendizdetodo.com/language/?item=20040225

    Comment by Prentiss Riddle — November 18, 2008 @ 1:59 am

  5. Regarding the original map (not this blog’s commentary): move the “X” to Greece or Rome, and suddenly…gasp!…the mystery disappears.

    Comment by Chester — November 18, 2008 @ 2:16 am

  6. The East-West dividing line is the Cuyahoga River. Period.

    Comment by Cappy — November 18, 2008 @ 2:38 am

  7. Here in Washington State, we had a governor given to referring to our region as the “Pacific Northeast,” in recognition of the importance of Pacific Rim trade.

    Comment by Walaka — November 18, 2008 @ 3:12 am

  8. The dividing between East and West line isn’t in Ohio, as Cappy (#6) implies. Ohio is obviously entirely East. In fact, the dividing line between East and West is clearly the Missouri River running from Bismarck down through Pierre. Rapid City SD is in the West, and Fargo ND is in the East.

    I have a brother-in-law who lived in New Jersey. He announced that he was moving out West, and ended up in Baltimore. That is obviously wrong.

    Comment by geochristian — November 18, 2008 @ 4:06 am

  9. Это стандартный скин вордпресс у вас на блоге ?

    Comment by Виджин — November 18, 2008 @ 5:49 am

  10. A similar issue to this has broken out on Wikipedia over things like “the easternmost point in Asia” (not counting islands). Is it Cape Dezhnev, at 66°01′N 169°43′W, or is it the 180th meridian? One faction says that it is plainly the easternmost point (i.e., you travel east from, say, Moscow, and keep going until you run out of land); the other says that Cape Dezhnev is a very westerly part of Russia, it is in the Western hemisphere, and you cannot, by definition, get any father east than the 180th meridian.

    Comment by mcb — November 18, 2008 @ 6:14 am

  11. My favourite webcomic and my favourite blog meet! I hope they spawn some little baby blogcomics.

    Comment by T — November 18, 2008 @ 7:11 am

  12. Chester’s comment (about Greece/Rome) is too true…. The first mention of ‘east/west’ as it stands today, dates to the Roman times, when the ‘Roman world’ was separated into 2 administrative regions, “Eastern” and “Western” Empires. That became further entrenched when the original Church broke off into the Eastern (Orthodox) and Western (Catholic) churches in 1054, much along the old Roman Empire’s lines. Eurocentric? Sure, but that’s the legacy we’re left with today….

    Comment by A — November 18, 2008 @ 9:44 am

  13. I also concur with Chester. In fact, in some ways the general concept can be traced all the way back to Herodotos, although he spoke of Europe and Asia.

    I also would point out that German uses Abendland (evening land) and Morgenland (morning land) in essentially the same way that English uses Occident and Orient. And those words themselves derive from Latin words meaning respectively setting and rising.

    Comment by DemetriosX — November 18, 2008 @ 10:38 am

  14. What – no mention of Orient/Occident?

    I’m a little disappointed.

    Comment by Terry — November 18, 2008 @ 10:38 am

  15. As a student of Japanese history, I have similar issues with these labels. Not because I harbor any sort of new age anti-Eurocentric ideas about that Japan shouldn’t be in the East (East relative to what?) or anything like that.

    But when I’m in a book store, I keep my eye out for books with “East” or “Far East” or “Oriental” in the title, and every now and then, you end up with an “Oriental” book that’s about the Near East or the Middle East, not China & Japan.

    On a similar note, we frequently refer to the entire region from Egypt and Turkey to Afghanistan as the Middle East; so, if Egypt and Israel and Lebanon and Turkey are part of the Middle East, where’s the Near East?

    Comment by toranosuke — November 18, 2008 @ 11:25 am

  16. Isn’t the problem simply that Americans insist on redefining everything to resolve around them. None of the maps I own have America at their centre. If you recognise that fact that America is in the west (well, duh) rather than as the illustration does, treating the west as all the stuff to the east. I live in the North of England. It doesn’t cause me confusion when I think about the towns further south which are also in ‘the North’.

    You are absolutely right that definitions of ‘the East’ and ‘the West’ depend on frame of reference. However, it’s only a problem when people insist on using a different frame of reference arbitrarily, and then not changing their other conceptions accordingly. Call China the west and Europe the East if that will really make it less confusing for you!

    Maybe the pictures here will make it easier to understand: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World

    Comment by Si — November 18, 2008 @ 12:08 pm

  17. Re “oriental”. In France, “oriental” refers to the Levant, usually, and even to North Africa. This is particularly true for describing cooking, where we can find websites such as: http://www.cuisineorientale.com/ entitled “cuisine orientale des pays d’Afrique du Nord” (Oriental cuisine of the countries of North Africa).

    The regions described in English as “oriental” would be more commonly described as “asiatique” in France, or “de l’Asie de l’est”.

    Comment by Marc Naimark — November 18, 2008 @ 12:45 pm

  18. @toranosuke: The term “near east” is older, and used to refer to Anatolia, the Levant and even Mesopotamia.

    Nowadays it’s seldom used, and if it is, it refers almost exclusively to Anatolia (the western half of modern day Turkey) or Turkey itself, as long as it’s not in the context of things referring to the eastern portion (war with the kurds, clashes with the Armenians, etc.).

    Comment by Miguel Farah — November 18, 2008 @ 1:25 pm

  19. fantastic post! a plus that it originated from xkcd, which is a plus in my books!

    Comment by floodgate — November 18, 2008 @ 2:06 pm

  20. After being in China for a while, I just started thinking of Central Asia as “the west.” The Xi in Xinjiang is west—I wonder what the etymology of that one is is. Although most European and American researchers would probably consider Central Asia as part of the “eastern” world, now that I’m back in the United States I prefer to just think of it as the other side of the globe.

    Comment by Alexander — November 18, 2008 @ 2:49 pm

  21. This was a great post. As an American the whole east/west thing used to confuse me too when I was young. To ‘Si’ with comment 16, I would like to say that everybody likes to place their country in the middle of the map. I know some Aussies that like to turn the map upside down so that their country is at the top. I have seen maps from Asia that put America on the right so that their country can be near the center.

    Comment by Jack — November 18, 2008 @ 3:02 pm

  22. The first commenter has the “correct” answer: the East/West divide as we know it from our ancestors goes through Jerusalem, not New York City.

    Thew XKCD guy needs to get his head out of his self-absorbed ass.

    Comment by Brian — November 18, 2008 @ 3:30 pm

  23. I remember, when I was some 10 years old, this East/West stuff used to trouble me for greatly. Living in Western Europe, the East Coast of the USA was to the west of my position. How could this be??? East normally was on the other side.

    All ended well: when I grew up I became a cartographer and GIS professional ;-)

    Comment by PeeJay — November 18, 2008 @ 3:46 pm

  24. Жду продолжения рассказа )

    Comment by Гринвуд — November 18, 2008 @ 3:47 pm

  25. [...] East and West: Never the Twain Shall Meet? (Strange Maps) (tags: xkcd west east maps geography) [...]

    Pingback by Transpacifica » links for 2008-11-18 — November 18, 2008 @ 4:04 pm

  26. East / west is judged from Greenwich in London. The zero meridian was based there out of maritime necessity when the british invented standardised time. I think the french tried to do something similar with Paris at 0, but it failed. All world time is relative to this, even internet time is GMT.

    I quite like how the cultural zero has drifted ever westward; it would make an interesting map in itself.

    Comment by rob — November 18, 2008 @ 4:16 pm

  27. Although East and West are essentially artificial constructs with no basis in geographic reality, isn’t the “true” way of judging where one ends and the other begins simply the Greenwich Meridian / International Date Line?

    East of Greenwich and West of Greenwich have worked well enough for mapmakers and navigators for hundreds of years. It’s pretty Euro-centric, for sure, but you have to draw the line somewhere. And drawing it so the world gets split through the Aleutian islands rather than the middle of Asia looks SO much tidier…

    Comment by Primly Stable — November 18, 2008 @ 4:24 pm

  28. I’ve long thought that the Chinese term that is translated as “Middle Kingdom” should be translated “Central Kingdom”, which seems to me to come closer to the Chinese conception of the place of China in the world.

    Comment by Dale — November 18, 2008 @ 4:52 pm

  29. @#16 Si

    I don’t think there is really a “problem” (with Americans or anyone else you could put an x on the map, by the way) being addressed here, more like a “isn’t it funny how…”.

    In America, you have North and South, but when you say them, you probably really mean NorthEast and SouthEast, geographically speaking. I wouldn’t call that a problem, just a quirk of our naming standards and history.

    Comment by BAT — November 18, 2008 @ 6:27 pm

  30. This whole silly problem would be resolved if we simply established an east pole and a west pole.

    Comment by patrik — November 18, 2008 @ 6:40 pm

  31. This bugged me a lot growing up because I live on the West coast of the United States in the “Pacific Northwest”, specifically Oregon.

    Alaska was always much more north AND West than we were. And we were refered to as the West Coast when we were on the Eastern edge of the Pacific Ocean.

    Also the constant reference to “Back East” as New England and other areas from the Mississippi River to the Atlantic shore confused things further.

    Comment by TomtheFanboy — November 18, 2008 @ 7:23 pm

  32. Si (post number 16) – What has this got to do with Americans? Are we to be chastised because we dare to think about how things are set up?

    We do not resolve every thing to be around us, it is simply that in our large country there are different meanings to West and East than those used by Europeans. And the blogger has humorously compared the two paradigms

    Comment by Art — November 18, 2008 @ 7:27 pm

  33. And #22 – that is quite a ridiculous and undeservedly harsh rebuke for someone who labels his blog as: a webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language

    Lighten up, dude.

    Comment by Art — November 18, 2008 @ 7:31 pm

  34. I agree with Chester that probably Rome is possibly the east/west dividing line.

    As to Brian and Saket who place Jerusalem as the east/west center, I believe that this is not the case. When doing biblical archeology or studying biblical times, Jerusalem and the surrounding area is called “The Ancient NEAR EAST” as opposed to the “Far east.” This begs the question “Near to what?” I would submit the answer would be Rome. This would not only be because of the Roman empire, as A suggests, but also because of the Catholic Church’s influence. This is all supposition, but I think it has merit.

    In America, we have different ways to divide our country in to east and west. I live in Colorado and do not think there is a NSEW axis here our state. However, all the rivers run either run to the Pacific or to the Atlantic from here (the Continental Divide). In Nebraska, there is a post which signifies the geographic center of the lower 48. Usually people use the Mississippi River to distinguish east and west. While we do this, I do not really think that anyone here believes that America is the east-west divider of the world.

    Comment by Rolland — November 18, 2008 @ 7:37 pm

  35. Another interesting designator (at least to me, being from northern New England) is the term Yank(ee).

    To the UK, at least, all US citizens are Yanks. To people in the southern US, the term Yankees applies to all Northerners (dating back to our Civil War). To Northerners, the term applies solely to New Englanders. And in New England it applies to those parts of Northern New England which have managed to preserve some amount of their old-timey culture – usually defined as rural New Hampshire, Vermont and Maine

    Comment by Art — November 18, 2008 @ 7:44 pm

  36. Отлично! Блог в закладки.

    Comment by Слеер — November 18, 2008 @ 8:19 pm

  37. Great, thoughtful blog as usual. I think “relativity” is the term (thanks, Einstein). West and and East have no meaning from a scientific point of view on a spinning globe (and nor have north and south in a wider, galactic context). Just a local, political context.
    Patrik’s point was fun.
    We have spoken about the Paris Meridian before. Still no joy on a map? Or have I missed it?

    Comment by lordhutton — November 18, 2008 @ 8:25 pm

  38. Note: the term is ‘Aussie’ rather than ‘Ozzie’ (Google results have Aussie=28m, Ozzie=4m, with the latter seldom referencing the country).

    The aural confusion generated by referring to Australia as ‘Oz’ is understandable.

    Comment by LL — November 19, 2008 @ 2:55 am

  39. For your pontification,

    east and west are mental constructs of man that have been applied to point our relative location. Therefore there is your relative heading or trajectory and the locale of your destination in respect to the Prime Meridian.
    Unfortunately, the world did not start in the U.S. and it is subject to some rules.

    Comment by Shane — November 19, 2008 @ 3:26 am

  40. Regarding World War I, Germany and Austria-Hungary (and the Ottoman Empire) were known as the Central Powers because of their position more or less between the Western Allies and the eastern ones – mainly the Russian Empire and Serbia.

    The interesting thing to me about the east/west perspective here is that most of the western Allies – Americans, British, Canadians, French and others – referred to the front in France and Belgium as the “Western Front”, even though it was only the western front from the German perspective. For the western Allies, you had to go north or east to get to the Western Front.

    And many people in the “West” refer to the other main front – in both world wars – as the Eastern Front, the term used by the Germans. I suppose to the Russians it would have been the Western Front.

    Comment by Dave in NYC — November 19, 2008 @ 4:42 am

  41. @Si (#16): The “problem” is that Americans want to redefine everything to revolve around them? How is that any different from how the Prime Meridian got placed in England to begin with? Or how the French clung to the notion of the “Paris Meridian” for decades after the Greenwich Meridian got established as the Prime Meridian? Or any number of other meridians that were used in other countries? Why single the Americans out?

    As for maps that show America in the center, I’m not surprised that you haven’t seen any, since you don’t live in America. But in America you can get maps with America in the center…and in Australia you can get maps with Australia in the center; in Japan you can get maps with Japan in the center, et cetera. (That being said, most American maps do put Europe in the center; it’s just that you can also find them with America in the center.)

    Comment by rhodent — November 19, 2008 @ 4:56 am

  42. I have always thought that maps that put the United States in the middle of a world map, requiring that Asia be cut into two, were very ego-centric. I would prefer to see the US to the left of the map (as per maps often seen in Europe) or to the right, as often seen in Asia.

    Comment by Michael — November 19, 2008 @ 8:21 am

  43. The XKCD man is not complaining about America’s place in the world, but about his… the universe does, after after all, revolve each and every ME.

    I only found out the Bond girl Vesper Lynd from Casino Royale was a pun on West Berlin.

    Comment by Nicholas Waller — November 19, 2008 @ 11:29 am

  44. I only JUST found out the Bond girl Vesper Lynd from Casino Royale was a pun on West Berlin, sorry (referencing Vesper in the blog post).

    Comment by Nicholas Waller — November 19, 2008 @ 11:30 am

  45. @Dave:
    There were two (or three, if you include the southern one) main fronts in (the european part of) these wars, so to distinguish them, it is naturally to use the relative positions of them – the “west front” was west of the “east front”, the “east front” east of the “west front”. So, why not naming them as such?

    Comment by Paŭlo Ebermann — November 19, 2008 @ 11:35 am

  46. Классная статья! Спасибо!

    Comment by Глеб — November 19, 2008 @ 3:24 pm

  47. First off, East and West exist in relation to the movement of the surface of the Earth: East is spinward, West is anti-spinward. Your position on the Earth is irrelevant. Indeed, you would observe spin even when standing on the poles. You would have a far better argument saying that North and South are arbitrary, but of course you would have to give up your geopolitical parables.

    Second, the Middle Kingdom (Chung-Kuo) is in the middle of Heaven and Earth (Earth being all the non-China bits).

    You also vastly underestimate the size of the Pacific Ocean.

    Comment by Peter Buxton — November 19, 2008 @ 6:21 pm

  48. Я тoже вoрдпресс себе на блoг пoставил )

    Comment by Санек — November 19, 2008 @ 7:26 pm

  49. weird. i just stumbled across that exact map earlier today on xkcd…

    Comment by eliska — November 19, 2008 @ 10:54 pm

  50. Adding to comment #14 – no one mentions that we “orient” our maps. Nor was the concept of orientation brought up.

    Comment by Onkel Bob — November 19, 2008 @ 11:35 pm

  51. [...] 331 – East and West: Never the Twain Shall Meet? . [...]

    Pingback by Top Posts « WordPress.com — November 20, 2008 @ 12:25 am

  52. @Alexander (#20): the name for Xinjiang (新疆) has nothing to do with the word for West. It is Chinese for “new frontier” — despite the insistence of the Chinese government that it has always been part of China, it was incorporated into the empire relatively late in the nation’s history (Qing Dynasty, ~1644 – 1910).

    You may have been thinking of Tibet, whose Chinese name is 西藏 (xi zang) — meaning Western Province.

    Interestingly enough in the 20th century the Chinese, despite the Middle (or as Dale rightly points out, Central) Kingdom moniker, has always thought of themselves as Eastern or Oriental. (The opening post refers to the classic Communist anthem “The East Is Red.”) Perhaps this reflects a national inferiority complex, after being humiliated by the military and economic might of the Europeans!

    Comment by Wilson — November 20, 2008 @ 1:12 am

  53. By the way, as long as people are getting upset over each others’ points of reference, I’ll just throw it out there that whenever I log on to Google Maps, it defaults to the US!

    Comment by Wilson — November 20, 2008 @ 1:59 am

  54. Хoрoший блoг. Пoдписался к вам на фид.

    Comment by Анатолий — November 20, 2008 @ 5:18 am

  55. I’ve always enjoyed the fact that Australia is in the “global north”.

    Comment by Sean — November 20, 2008 @ 5:41 am

  56. Nice article and funny maps :)

    Comment by varnaboy — November 20, 2008 @ 6:10 am

  57. #53 – that’s because we invented it, dude.

    If you want to change that, set your Default Location to wherever you want

    Comment by Art — November 20, 2008 @ 6:02 pm

  58. [...] A perplexing incongruity from Strange Maps: [...]

    Pingback by The Incongruity : Real Worcester - Worcester News and Blogs — November 20, 2008 @ 6:42 pm

  59. Another note about Asia: Japan’s name (from the Chinese) is 日本, translated ‘origin of the sun’ – it refers to its eastern position relative to China, but it’s what the Japanese call Japan.

    Comment by Thom Blake — November 20, 2008 @ 7:43 pm

  60. Oh no, my Chinese is receding into the west (from my current point of view)!

    I also like Peter’s (#47) spinward/anti-spinward—it reminds me of R. Buckminster Fuller’s sunsight/sunclipse.

    Comment by Alexander — November 20, 2008 @ 8:15 pm

  61. @#59

    From what I’ve heard, Anatolia (aka Asia Minor, aka Turkey) means the same thing or something similar to sunrise in ancient Greek.

    Comment by BAT — November 20, 2008 @ 8:35 pm

  62. I just got into an argument on this when a question in Trivial Pursuit was “which city is further west? Detroit, Cincinnati or Atlanta.” (I could have the cities wrong here). I argued that it depends on your point of view: from Cincinnati if you travel west long enough you end up in Atlanta, then Detroit then back at Cincinnati. I assumed the question meant directly so I guessed Cincinnati and got it correct. No one else playing liked my spiel though.

    Comment by Flounder Lee — November 20, 2008 @ 9:02 pm

  63. [...] This map made me laugh. [...]

    Pingback by BagOfNothing.com » Bag of Randomness — November 21, 2008 @ 11:00 am

  64. Too funny. On Fridays, my “Morning Coffee” extension in Firefox brings this site up next to XKCD.

    So my first thought was – “Hey, isn’t this a strip from last week?”…

    Comment by Chasmosaur — November 21, 2008 @ 3:23 pm

  65. Just to round out this entry’s crop of comments: Buscar el levante, jendo por el ponente. Seek the East by Going via the West

    (Christobal Colon aka Christoph Columbus aka Cristoforo Colombo)

    Comment by Hermann — November 21, 2008 @ 4:45 pm

  66. I love your blog, I’m always refering to it on mine! Congrats!

    Comment by deltanz — November 21, 2008 @ 5:29 pm

  67. brilliant post! thanks!

    Comment by TechNald — November 21, 2008 @ 5:54 pm

  68. I’m sure most states have similar issues, but where I grew up in Kansas, we considered there to be a distinct divide between Johnson County, “Regular” Kansas, and Western Kansas. This was partly an urban gradient and partly a landscape based one, as the state grows progressively flatter and drier the further west one heads. The difficulty is establishing the dividing lines.

    http://geology.com/state-map/kansas.shtml

    Most people from Johnson county (largely an affluent suburb of Kansas City) considered anything west of Topeka to be “Western Kansas” and therefore largely distasteful. Johnson County is admired/despised for its comparative wealth and population density. People in the Far West see themselves as unique and more rugged. I grew up in the West, but I consider the cultural hearth for the positive conceptions of Kansas in terms of the popular conception of farms, cute small towns, and wholesomeness, to lie along the meridian that aligns with the I-35 corridor region between Wichita and Salina. In this case, I think the color coded elevation map coincidentally portrays the most accurate division of East vs. West in Kansas Geography.

    Comment by CopenTex — November 21, 2008 @ 8:39 pm

  69. And why is the Black Sea called that way ? Because it’s the litteral translation of Kara Deniz, meaning the Northern Sea in turk, a language where geography stands with colors: black/north, white/south, red/west, yellow/east, if I do remember well ( you can correct me ).

    Comment by lp — November 21, 2008 @ 10:23 pm

  70. Я рад, что российские читатели нашли этот блог. Я думаю, что карты – универсально привлекательной. [I'm glad that Russian readers have found this blog. I think that maps are universally appealing]. Also glad it was XKCD work that welcomed them here.

    Comment by Michael Hancock — November 21, 2008 @ 10:51 pm

  71. I remember my Japanese teacher mentioning this. As a kid he didn’t understand how Japan was supposed to be the east, when obviously, the US was to the east.

    Comment by Bertram — November 22, 2008 @ 12:33 am

  72. From the US, the shortest route to what’s conventionally called ‘the East’ is in fact via the west.

    It’s not so clear: it depends where you start from and where you want to get to. The x on your map seems to be somewhere around Washington DC, so let’s take that as a base. To get to Bombay by the shortest route (12855 km — not all that short!) you’d fly over Trondheim and St Petersburg.

    In Uruguay, a western country by most standards, “oriental” means east of the Uruguay river, so they call their country the República Oriental del Uruguay, and when filling in forms that ask for their nationality they write “Oriental” if they’re in Uruguay (but, for obvious reasons, “Uruguayan” if they’re not).

    Comment by Athel Cornish-Bowden — November 22, 2008 @ 1:01 pm

  73. In 2004 I was living in the Netherlands. I attended a University course named “East-West relations”. I enroled in the wrong assumption that it would be about Asia. It ended up being about the Cold War.

    Comment by alfanje — November 22, 2008 @ 2:13 pm

  74. Use a different map, one with the new world on the left, Europe and Africa in the middle, and Asia on the right and it makes sense. The “West” is the new world and Europe, the “East” is Asia (starting, roughly, at Turkey). And Africa doesn’t exist, because it’s in fact part of the “North/South” map, which makes even less sense because it includes Australia in the North and Mongolia in the South…

    Comment by rek — November 22, 2008 @ 4:23 pm

  75. ^ and for that matter, Australia is in the “West” as well.

    Comment by rek — November 22, 2008 @ 4:25 pm

  76. I’m reminded of one of Mitchell and Webb’s ‘Captain’ sketches – the first in this compilation:

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-uemc-e3w

    Comment by Tom — November 23, 2008 @ 1:52 pm

  77. suggestions:

    For the geographical point of view let’s use left, right, up an down, with a little man printed on the map as a reference ( follow his left hand…)
    For the cultural point of view:
    The western world : the roman empire
    The eastern world: not yet part of the empire but work is in progress.

    Comment by lp — November 23, 2008 @ 3:06 pm

  78. [...] details: 331 – East and West: Never the Twain Shall Meet? « Strange Maps [...]

    Pingback by 331 - East and West: Never the Twain Shall Meet? « Strange Maps | kozmom // — November 23, 2008 @ 3:22 pm

  79. @14 DemetriosX – I’m sure it was just an occident. (I couldn’t resist the obvious pun!)

    @27 Primly Stable – I used to wonder if there is a longitude one could use as the “anti Prime Meridian” (ie what 180 is now) that doesn’t bisect a single bit of land (until, of course, one reaches Antarctica) so that we don’t have to make the date line do a jog around land, and make the countries with islands on the “other” side of the line cede them to the next closest country :) I think there is one that is just to the east of St. Lawrence Island that also doesn’t intersect any Aluetian Island – I was under the impression that if we chose a Prime Meridian that was 180 degrees from that line, then things would be a lot easier, but the idea of the US seceding St. Lawrence and several Aluetian islands (back) to Russia (not to mention Pacific island countries like Kiribati having to cede its islands east of this line to someone) would probably make the hassle worse. (Wish I could remember what the exact longitude I came up with was … )

    Comment by David Kendall — November 23, 2008 @ 8:29 pm

  80. This also reminds me of a joke I heard from a comedian – he got out a globe and pointed to California and said “OK, this is the west … ” then pointed to the east cost of the US “and this is the east … ” then pointed to close to the middle of the country “this is the middle west … ” (obviously means the “midwest”, but this wording makes the joke work), then spun the globe over to Arabia “and this is the middle east! No wonder they’re in such bad shape over there! The middle east should be here [spins the globe] in Pennsylvania! They’re just looking for Pittsburgh! PLO – The Pennsylvania Liberation Organization?”

    Comment by David Kendall — November 23, 2008 @ 8:33 pm

  81. Красивый блoг! Где скин такoй классный скачали ?

    Comment by Гоша — November 24, 2008 @ 5:47 am

  82. Слoжнoватo написанo для нoвичка – бoльшую часть непoнял (

    Comment by Врач — November 24, 2008 @ 6:17 am

  83. Interesting to see the origins of east and west in English and Arabic. For what its worth, in my language, Irish Gaelic, west is thiar, meaning behind, and thoir means at front. “Ag dul siar” means either going west or going backwards. “Ag dul soir” means going east and used to mean going forward. Coincidentally, for centuries the locus of power in Ireland was the anglicised Pale around Dublin and, beyond that, England and the great power of Europe, all to the east. While we’re at it, the Irish for south “deisceart” is related do “deas” which can mean right side, dexterous (good), nice, skilful and is possibly in one of its forms (theas) related to “teas” meaning “heat”, while north is “clé” which means left, sinister, related to “ciotach”, awkward and clumbsy. I think its similar in Scottish Gaelic and I would like to hear what the other Celtic languages have to say.

    Comment by Séamus — November 24, 2008 @ 11:00 pm

  84. I’m a native Californian, and my family has lived here since the gold rush (around 1850). I think “the west” and “the east” are becoming less useful labels. The West really refers to the Europe, the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, but not Mexico, Indonesia, etc. It is a political term, not a geographic term. I don’t have an alternative to suggest.

    The “east” is another story. There is no common political bond among Japan, North Korea, South Korea, Siberia and China, so it’s just a geographic term, and not a very useful one.

    The main reason to talk about the countries of East Asia as a group is in terms of trade. In that context, they are referred to collectively as “east asia,” and, along with California, the Pacific Northwest, Australia, New Zealand, etc. as the “pacific rim.”

    The line between the east and west does NOT go through Jerusalem. If it did, Jerusalem would not be in the mid-east; it would be central. Since Israel and Lebanon are in the mid-east, the dividing line is to the west, somewhere between central Europe (which is part of the west) and eastern Europe (which is probably not).

    Comment by Steve Premo — November 25, 2008 @ 6:51 pm

  85. Интереснo написанo… спасибo.

    Comment by Аполон — November 25, 2008 @ 7:24 pm

  86. Закинул тему в закладки – oчень пoнравилoсь

    Comment by Агел — November 26, 2008 @ 5:04 am

  87. Все вернo сказанo

    Comment by Гебельс — November 26, 2008 @ 6:21 am

  88. Спасибo за инфу.

    Comment by ОГенри — November 26, 2008 @ 6:47 am

  89. The ‘near north’ quote should be known by every Australian high school history student.

    The leading Australian political figure of the mid-20th century, Robert Menzies, said in the context of WW2:

    “The problems of the Pacific are different. What Great Britain calls the Far East is to us the near north.”

    Comment by Australian — November 26, 2008 @ 9:27 am

  90. Same thing with me. As a western Iberian, I find annoying people consider Spain and Portugal to be southern countries in Europe. If you happen to divide the current EU in four quadrants (E,W,S, and N) and locate the center in what is actually the geographic center of EU (near Frankfurt), actually most of Iberia is located in the Western quadrant. In the same way, Scotland is used to be included in the group of northern European countries when the vast majority is in Western Europe. If you include all of Europe (not only the EU) the whole of Iberia enters in the Western quadrant. I guess those classifications are purely based on historical topics.

    Comment by Javi — November 26, 2008 @ 11:04 am

  91. Interesting topic.
    (I wonder what the Russians are chatting about, noone knows. :D )

    To add another point of view, in Hungary people dislike when the country is referred to as Eastern Europe -legacy of socialism- we prefer Middle Europe or Eastern Middle Europe.
    Also there is no expression like Middle East here, we still call that area Near East from Turkey to Iran to Egypt (probably because it’s much closer than to Britain or the US).

    The name origins are similar:
    sunrise=napkelte -> kelet=east
    sunset=napnyugta -> nyugat=west

    Comment by Balazs — November 26, 2008 @ 11:20 pm

  92. “The Proto-Indo-European root for East is [*aus-]“….Funny how Australia has come to be regarded as a Western country when its very name derives from the word for east.

    @Tom #76 Hilarious Mitchell and Webb sketches. Funny and apposite. When did we start calling it Australia as opposed to New South Wales?

    Comment by Pat — November 27, 2008 @ 11:37 am

  93. Hmmm…
    According to Wikipedia: “The name “Australia” is derived from the Latin Australis, meaning “Southern”. ”

    So, does “aus” mean eastern or southern?

    Comment by Pat — November 27, 2008 @ 2:38 pm

  94. Pat, the “aus-” citation above is incorrect when applied to Australia (but not to Austria, which does mean something like “eastern realm”). “Austral” means “southern” in the same way that “oriental” means “eastern”.

    Comment by Huntington — November 27, 2008 @ 7:28 pm

  95. In regards to post 52, it’s doubtful that “The East is Red” is reflective of a national inferiority complex. Perhaps it’s because China is located in the eastern part of Asia?

    Comment by sunrise — November 28, 2008 @ 12:29 am

  96. I hope a few of the commenters here have managed to take away the lessons that:
    # Direction and location are different kinds of thing;
    # Direction is relative to location; and
    # Terms may quite validly have different meanings in different places, different meanings at different times in the same places, and multiple meanings at the same time in the same places, depending on context.

    The xkcd cartoon was of course a joke predicated on a misunderstanding of the above points, all of which the original Strangemaps post ably explained, directly or indirectly. Most of the comments are evidently extensions of the joke, but some seem to suggest that the commenters failed to grasp either it or the subsequent exposition.

    Further to Rolland’s comment @ 34, I think the usage of “Near East” referring to Biblical Historical locales derives from the British rather than the Roman Empire. London became arguably the most influential centre of scholarship and publication in the 19th-century, when the British Empire approached its greatest extent and influence (the two being not unconnected), so UK-centric terminology became widely adopted from that period. Once established, in-group scholarly usages tend to persist even when the world outside their immediate discipline has moved on.

    Most of the British Empire was reached from Britain by sailing generally eastwards (after an initial southerly leg). The nearest places under British control were in, around or near the Mediterranean, including Gibraltar, Malta, Palestine/Jordan, Egypt, Aden, Mesopotamia etc; the next major area of interest was the Indian subcontinent, and somewhat further still lay Singapore, Hong Kong and sundry other territories. As a result terminology in the British Armed Forces, and consequently in Britain generally, referred to Mediterranean-proximate places as “The Near East”, India and environs as “The Middle East” and everywhere beyond India as “The Far East.”

    This tripartite terminology lingered on in the UK (at least in Forces circles) up to the 1960’s when, as the dependant of a British Army soldier (who had previously served in Aden) I myself lived in Hong Kong and Singapore. However, after the Independence of India in 1947 the relevance of referring to it (together with East and West Pakistan, Nepal, etc) as “The Middle East” diminished and, perhaps influenced by non-British usages, that description was increasingly transferred to the Eastern Mediterranean and Mesopotamian regions, while the term “Near East” has largely disappeared. (My parents returned from Malta yesterday, so I must remember to ask if it’s still recognised there.)

    The general lesson: context is all.

    Comment by Terry Hunt — November 28, 2008 @ 12:26 pm

  97. [...] (zusammen mit I Can Has Cheezburger? natürlich). In einem anderen Eintrag wird beschrieben, warum West und Osten als geopolitische Begriffe für Amerikaner keinen richtigen Sinn erheben: From the US, the [...]

    Pingback by Blog-Verzeichnis» Blogarchiv » ZEUGS: Thanksgiving, die Betten im Weißen Haus und West ist Ost — November 30, 2008 @ 1:56 am

  98. I am from New Zealand, which is about as Eastern as it gets geographically and as Western as it gets socio-poliically….

    Comment by Tim Hickey — November 30, 2008 @ 8:12 am

  99. @Pat (92) – In the sketch, the place they named was the area surrounding were they landed – the state, still called New South Wales. They were not naming the country.

    Comment by T — December 2, 2008 @ 1:09 pm

  100. Jerusalem. Your map at the top there is totally wrong. It’s Jerusalem. In Europe, the line divides the countries with funny alphabets from the countries that use the Roman alphabet. Wherefore, Greece does not belong in the EU, and Turkey should not be using the roman alphabet. If you don’t want to go with Jerusalem, i’d say it’s the Jordan River.

    Comment by john burnett — December 16, 2008 @ 7:55 am

  101. Left and right….east and west are linear constructions they do not work in a circular world. Its all abstract and not based in reality. So maybe the creation of East and West was way back when they thought the world was flat…

    Comment by Sean Maurice Hunt — December 20, 2008 @ 4:52 pm

  102. I think whats even more confusing and ignorant calling eastern parts of the USA the Midwest!!! Boy that bugs me…lol i will get over it some day.

    Comment by Sean Maurice Hunt — December 20, 2008 @ 4:54 pm

  103. спосибо автору за тему Знакомимся.

    Comment by Rikki_Cleaner — December 21, 2008 @ 7:33 pm

  104. [...] Von StrangeMaps » Von Herr Henning am 12. January 2009 in funny, lustig, picture, weird   [...]

    Pingback by atomtigerblog » Ein kleines Problem des Standortes - the strange behaviour of a few animals in the best funblog ever — January 12, 2009 @ 7:04 pm

  105. Native Californian here, with a quick comment: if you read a novel by Zane Grey or Louis L’Amour, most likely you’d think of it as a “Western.” Of course, it would also most likely take place in Arizona, Texas, Nevada, Wyoming, or Colorado. All of which are east of me. But no one calls them “Easterns.”

    Comment by Peet — January 14, 2009 @ 11:18 pm

  106. Отличные новости, так держать, удачи в будущем.

    Comment by LoafAnnonna — January 16, 2009 @ 9:05 pm

  107. relly
    Further to Rolland’s comment @ 34, I think the usage of “Near East” referring to Biblical Historical locales derives from the British rather than the Roman Empire. London became arguably the most influential centre of scholarship and publication in the 19th-century, when the British Empire approached its greatest extent and influence (the two being not unconnected), so UK-centric terminology became widely adopted from that period. Once established, in-group scholarly usages tend to persist even when the world outside their immediate discipline has moved on

    Comment by top — January 23, 2009 @ 9:19 pm

  108. Стоит ли ждать обновления?.

    Comment by LoafAnnonna — January 24, 2009 @ 2:07 am

  109. Могу предложить много инфы по данной теме, нужно?.

    Comment by LoafAnnonna — January 24, 2009 @ 2:24 am

  110. I’ve always thought that East and West were defined relative to where you were standing in the US (or Europe, for that matter), not where you were looking at the map. Looking at a map, East and West are reversed, which would bug me if I thought that was how you define the global regions of West and East- which it isn’t.

    Comment by Jonathan — January 25, 2009 @ 4:49 pm

  111. Как часто публикуете новости по данной тематике?.

    Comment by LoafAnnonna — January 26, 2009 @ 10:50 am

  112. “According to Wikipedia: ‘The name “Australia” is derived from the Latin Australis, meaning “Southern”.’

    “So, does ‘aus’ mean eastern or southern?”

    Neither. The PIE verb *h₂eus- meant “to shine”, with strong connotations of dawn. (See note.) Thus, for example, “the sun shines” would be something like “sóh₂wl̥ h₂eusti”. The PIE word for “shiner; that which shines or causes to shine” was *h₂eustro-, which became Proto-Germanic *austa-, which became Old English “ēast”, modern English “east”. The change in meaning is fairly simple: that which shines like the dawn is of course the dawn itself, which occurs in the east.

    Proto-Italic, though, used a different word for “dawn”, *āusōsā, which became Latin “aurora”. Proto-Italic used its form of *h₂eustro-, *aust(e)ro-, as the name of a god, specifically the god of the south wind, whose name in Latin became “Auster”. The adjectival form of “auster” was “austrālis”, which came to mean “southern”.

    Note: *Aus- is an older, outdated reconstruction. We’re not sure what the sound transcribed as “h₂” was, but it had the effect of changing a neighboring *e into *ā. It was probably a very gutteral “h” sound, like the “ch” in German “Bach”.

    Comment by Sergei Andropov — January 27, 2009 @ 4:16 am

  113. Супер. Спасибо, так давно искал этот материал. Ну просто респектище автору. Никогда не забуду теперь

    Comment by Immeceisa — January 29, 2009 @ 5:56 am

  114. Le monde tel que vous ne l’avez jamais vu…

    Parce que cet hiver ne semble jamais finir, quand on n’a pas les moyens de partir au soleil, toutes les solutions sont bonnes pour échapper un court moment à ce déluge de flotte, de neige et de bourrasques glaciales……

    Trackback by Brèves de Montagne — February 11, 2009 @ 9:56 pm

  115. Mne ponravolos!

    Comment by Alena — February 20, 2009 @ 6:53 pm

  116. Друзья ! Меня уволили с работы… Что делать незнаю. Не могли бы вы дать мне несколько советов ?

    Comment by строитель — March 2, 2009 @ 6:30 pm

  117. Just admit that we (europe) are the center of the world! :D

    Comment by philip — March 12, 2009 @ 10:53 am

  118. привет. Администратор, хошь прикол ? :D к тебе на сайт можна заходить через yandex :)
    уаndех.ru/rеdir?url=lараrоsсору.kiЁv.uа

    Comment by дурик — March 14, 2009 @ 5:33 pm

  119. Добавил в закладке. В данный момент буду почаще четать!

    Comment by оля — March 17, 2009 @ 12:04 pm

  120. Cool!

    Comment by Bad_tempered — March 28, 2009 @ 9:02 am

  121. спасибо за статью… добавил в ридер

    Comment by солнечный — March 31, 2009 @ 9:43 am

  122. Админ, как долго этот текст сочинял? Жутко хочется узнать….

    Comment by Optoniheitnep — April 7, 2009 @ 8:19 pm

  123. Good blog!

    Comment by cross-platform application — April 16, 2009 @ 5:00 am

  124. Vielen Dank

    Comment by moon — July 3, 2009 @ 5:29 am

  125. Muchas gracias

    Comment by sun — July 4, 2009 @ 7:53 am

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