“America’s continental divide is known worldwide. However, nobody ever considers the presence of a European’s continental divide. While for America the subdivision seems more obvious (Atlantic and Pacific coasts, though nobody ever talks about the Pacific and Arctic divide!), in Europe the subdivision might be between the two largest water bodies bordering the subcontinent: Atlantic and Mediterranean Europe.”
“This physical (hence, objective) subdivision is interesting per se, since some countries considered Mediterranean actually are mostly looking towards the Atlantic (Portugal fully and Spain mostly), others considered central European actually lie fully within the Mediterranean basin, such as Hungary, or mostly (Slovenia, Austria). Even Germany has a big fraction of its area within the Mediterranean watershed!”
Thanks to Javier Garcia-Perez Gamarra for producing and sending in this map.
Countries like Portugal and Spain are considered Mediterranean, due to other “physical, hence objective” factors like climate, recurring winds, fauna, flora and natural eco-systems. On such (strange)maps, the continental divide between Atlantic and Mediterranean lies further up north and hence, the Mediterranean Area includes most of Portugal and Spain, with only a northern strip of the Iberian Peninsula considered Atlantic.
Comment by Carlos Cunha — December 11, 2008 @ 5:23 am
No one in their right mind would consider Russia to be mediterranean, though, just because a lot of its water eventually drains into the Mediterranean.
As to Germany, I live in the mediterranean “chunk” and it doesn’t feel mediterranean. Apart from Munich, of course, which everyone knows is the northermost Italian city.
Comment by mrs. h. — December 11, 2008 @ 5:34 am
I for one, have never ever heard anyone describe Portugal as being “considered a Mediterranean country”. Who in the world said that? That makes no sense whatsoever to me.
Comment by Roger — December 11, 2008 @ 5:56 am
(Portugal’s climate is arguably mostly of the Mediterranean type, though, as is Cape Town’s or San Francisco’s)
Comment by Roger — December 11, 2008 @ 5:58 am
It would have been interesting to separate the Baltic Sea and Black Sea basins and you would have gotten a very different view.
Comment by Stefan — December 11, 2008 @ 7:02 am
Slovenia is pretty obvious I’d've thought… surely it means Slovakia in the blurb?
Comment by Jason — December 11, 2008 @ 7:17 am
I agree with previous commenter about Mediterranean vs. Baltic vs. Black sea. The picture would be different I suppose.
Comment by Duran — December 11, 2008 @ 7:25 am
That’s an American point of view if there ever was one.
Living in Europe, I can assure you taht we don’t discuss the Amercian divide every day. It is compelling, but not more so thant the European one.
There is an age-old perceived cultural divide between Northern and SOuthern Europe, often assimilated with the North Sea – Mediterranean distinction.
Much less the Atlantic ocean.
also, the Black Sea really can’t be equated with the Mediterranean, it is considered a separate body of water.
Hence russia is indeed not Mediterranean, but it does have a Black Sea coast (how large this coast is, and whether places suchas the Crimea are part of it, is another debate though).
To Roger: Portugal is universally known in Europe as a Mediterranean country. If only because it has a Mediterranean, but does not have a North Sea coast. Also ofcourse it has a Latin culture, originating from the heart of the Mediterranean.
Btw, is a larger version of this map available?
Comment by igor — December 11, 2008 @ 8:46 am
Btw Russia is hardly on this map at all – perhaps a statement by itself!
Anyway most of Russia drains into the Caspian sea (throuogh the Vloga), not any Mediterranean related body of water.
Comment by igor — December 11, 2008 @ 8:50 am
A fascinating map. I once had plans to walk the Great Britain watershed – from John O’Groats to Lands End along the “spine of the country”. It’s amazing how close it gets to the coast in places – particularly on the North Devon coast, and in the North West of Scotland. Those plans may have to wait many years until I retire.
On a slightly related point, it’s very interesting how two of Europe’s greatest rivers can almost wave to each other across Europe’s watershed when both are large enough to be navigable – the Rhine (Rhine/Rhin/Rijn/Waal/etc) passes only 30Km from the Danube (Donau/Dunaj/Duna/etc) as it goes through Buesingen (itself an interesting enclave) near Schaffhausen.
Comment by Hugh Everett (Manchester, UK) — December 11, 2008 @ 8:53 am
Of course, hydrographic criteria doesn’t weight more than climate, culture, history or politics to decide which country is Mediterranean or not … I imagine the author of the post wanted to underline the perspective offered by this single map and hence its originality.
When you drive accross France, you can see a physical clue of this divide: authorities have placed a huge road sign where you can read “Ligne de partage des eaux” between “Mediterrannee” and “Atlantique.
I always like to cross this line. Imagine: the drop of rain which falls on your left will arrive until Cannes, and refresh the perfect body of a movie superstar in a warm summer day, while the drop falling on your right will carry super-tankers in the cloudy British Channel!
Different places, different fates!
Comment by ari — December 11, 2008 @ 8:56 am
I assure you that people from Portugal are really annoyed if someone defines them “Mediterranean”. They are proud to be of Latin descend (and language), but that’s another story.
Comment by .mau. — December 11, 2008 @ 8:56 am
The map is wrong for Switzerland (and Haute Savoie in France). It seems to consider that the Rhone until Geneva (and the Doubs until it leaves the Swiss border) drain into the Atlantic, which is absurd.
And parts of Russia certainly have a Mediterranean climate…
Comment by Linca — December 11, 2008 @ 9:27 am
In Southwestern Switzerland, the divide is far too much in the South. Also in other places, the map isn’t really detailled/correct.
You may want to have a look at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wasscherscheiden.png for some other divides, even though this map also contains some errors.
Comment by Lars — December 11, 2008 @ 9:38 am
Poland looks on the map as if is all in the Baltic basin. And that’s over 99& correct. Interestingly, however, there is a single small river in the south-east corner of Poland that does end up draining into the Black Sea. For those fascinated by such things, just look for Ustrzyki Dolne and you’ll find it. Having been to the town, I can’t say it feels particularly Mediterranean. I certainly would not be keen to try any faux-Italian cuisine in the place.
Comment by Konrad Talmont-Kaminski — December 11, 2008 @ 10:17 am
I think the “right” solution might be a three-sided map – an Atlantic, a Mediterranean and a continental side. Really, with its increasingly continental climate and distance from the sea, the Russian part of Europe can hardly be considered part of any sea-region…
Comment by Birdseed — December 11, 2008 @ 10:45 am
for those asking for a Black Sea basin: http://maps.grida.no/library/files/map_of_the_black_sea_basin.jpg
I agree with those saying there ain’t no atlantic/mediterranean divide in Europe. or to be more precise, mediterranean and atlantic regions exist, but three other main areas must be considered: Baltic network, Mitteleuropa, the Balkans.
interesting enough, Mitteleuropa mostly overlaps with Danube basin, but with striking exceptions: Bohemia region, southern Poland, eastern adriatic coastline and bits of northeastern Italy.
the failure and subdivision of Mitteleuropa (mediterranean, germanic, balkans) coincided with bloody wartime and rising poverty thru all the area (and by proximity, thru all Europe).
Comment by der Görzer — December 11, 2008 @ 10:49 am
“While for America the subdivision seems more obvious…”
Up to this point, I was thinking of the North America and South America subdivision. It seems I have a non-US-centric obviousness sense.
Comment by Roberto Bonvallet — December 11, 2008 @ 12:24 pm
There’s a more detailed map on French Wikipedia: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligne_de_partage_des_eaux
The page contains a link to a high-res image: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Lignedepartagedeseaux.png
Comment by Romke — December 11, 2008 @ 12:27 pm
Like Poland, Italy has a small portion belonging to the opposite side: the Val di Lei (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_di_Lei), a small valley in the region of Lombardy, which belongs to the Rhine basin.
@Igor: I agree, in Europe we don’t think so often about continental divides. Anyway, here’s a more detailed map, with the different European basins: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagine:Wasscherscheiden.png
@Jason: yes, of course it meant Slovakia
Comment by Paolo — December 11, 2008 @ 1:28 pm
The fact that the writer is American is further emphasized by his interest in how rarely the Arctic/Pacific divide is mentioned. Of course the Arctic/Atlantic divide is geographically much more important, and even correlates to Canada’s modest east/west political divisions; but he passes over that much more significant divide in silence.
I also think it’s cheating to count rivers emptying into the Black Sea as part of the Mediterranean watershed — it would be interesting to see how much a tripartite map of Europe along these lines corresponds to European cultural divisions.
Comment by Niel — December 11, 2008 @ 1:47 pm
Exactly, Carlos Cunha is right…
This division should be shifted a bit North. I´m from Vila Real a city up in the North of Portugal that is Atlantic influence but most of Portugal is Mediterranean.. Check this EEA map “http://www.seenet.info/images/Maps/Indicative%20map%20of%20the%20European%20biogeographical%20regions.gif”
Great Blog
Greetings
Comment by Luis — December 11, 2008 @ 1:51 pm
Boy, are people touchy!
Maybe the Strangemaps dude should move to the Moon so he doesn’t have to hear crappy, dumb comments about how what he writes is Amerocentric.
He never said that the world discusses the American continental divide every day, igor. Lighten up, dude.
And then he gets called out for _not_ mentioning the mythical Arctic, Atlantic/Pacific divide? So what? Should he get yelled at if he posts a map of Germany because he should also mention Botswana too? After all, the share the letter ‘a’.
Wow
Comment by Art — December 11, 2008 @ 3:55 pm
Besides, to all you whiners – do you see those funny little symbols on either side of the text on this posting? Those are called ‘quotes’ and they mean that the text is being reproduced from someone else – from the author of the map, not the author of this website.
Maybe if you did some easy Googling you would find that the author of the comments was born in SPAIN and teaches in the UK! He is not an American.
So, you’ll have to wait and pounce for another posting before you can show your anti-american bias
Comment by Art — December 11, 2008 @ 4:04 pm
It’s interesting how the line divides the Czech Republic precisely into historical regions: Bohemia, Moravia, and Czech part of Silesia.
Comment by ArCgon — December 11, 2008 @ 5:26 pm
Regarding “America”, I believe South America’s divide is similar to North America’s, through the Andes (so at a higher altitude) but both run more or less north/south with the east side going to the Atlantic and the west side to the Pacific. So in this instance just saying “America” is accurate. But, yes, it’s a bad habit to forget that the term applies to two whole continents.
Anyway, interesting map…is it true, BTW, that the Atlantic flows into the Mediterranean? I’ve heard that evaporation there exceeds river and rain inputs.
Comment by MartyL — December 11, 2008 @ 5:28 pm
Marty – You are right, that is why it is properly called the Continental Divide, and it runs from the Canadian Rockies down through the Andes
Comment by Art — December 11, 2008 @ 7:26 pm
In some places it’s rather striking. The Austro-Hungarian empire, for instance, is basically the Donau basin, while the old Hanseatic League is centered around the Baltic. Northern and Southern Italy are cut neatly by a high-water mark. And Spain really is three or four different countries in one, as the drainage pasins would suggest – at least to hear my Spanish friends tell it.
OTOH, you have Scandinavia (and the extreme Atlanticism of the UK), where the political, cultural and linguistic integration apparently trumps drainage basins (of course, the Scandinavian culture is essentially a coastal culture historically dominated by Denmark and Northern Germany, so from a travel time perspective it still makes kinda sense…).
Then you have Germany which is unified by a common language, but only kinda sorta – Bayern never seemed to quite integrate – but of course, they’re historically in the Austro-Hungarian sphere of influence…
Then there’s France, which geographically ought to be at least two countries (and culturally more like three to five…), but which is held together by a history of strong centralisation of authority (or at least the symbolism of authority) to the capital.
And then there’s the Big Neighbour to the East, but I don’t know enough about them to pass comment.
- Jake
Comment by JakeS — December 11, 2008 @ 7:32 pm
The American continental divide is well known partly because it has some fairly high elevations. It’s more fun to cross a continental divide if it’s above 10,000 feet (there, you can see I’m a U.S. resident–no meters). The European divide has some high elevations in the Alps–what might be more interesting to know is what is the LOWEST elevation point on either American or European divides.
Comment by Jenny — December 11, 2008 @ 7:32 pm
@MartyL (comment 26)
That’s what I know, too. And in the heydays of total belief in technical progress some guys even wanted to build a hydroelectric dam across the Strait of Gibraltar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantropa
Comment by trulla — December 11, 2008 @ 7:33 pm
We never talked about colonies.
Are there any colonies in Europe?
Exclaves
Transport
Linkages
Can you name some nice music,
like the Moldau, Bedrich Smetana…
Comment by Faust — December 11, 2008 @ 9:23 pm
Interesting – you can see here that France (and Switzerland) has the highest properly Mediterranean region – the rest is Black Sea – and because of the elevations, you can see also how the French part of the real divide is the more passable – hence the country’s historic role as a North/South, Atlantic/Mediterranean bridge.
Comment by Juliette — December 11, 2008 @ 11:52 pm
Hey, I think about the Hudson Bay/Gulf of Mexico divide sometimes, I cross it every few weeks. It’s hard to make an elevation 976-feet divide very interesting, though…
Comment by ptschett — December 12, 2008 @ 5:58 am
Being from the part of Western Canada most affected by the “Divide” concept, I have this question in mind frequently. Throughout my youth I could never imagine why anyone would place or grow a major population center in the area where Edmonton, Alberta came to be. Almost balanced on a knife-edge – prairie to the east, and rolling foothills turning to mountains to the west, nestled in the valley of the North Saskatchewan river. I finally clued in to the fact that while the NS was a major trade highway to points far to the east (eventually reaching Hudson’s Bay), only a few miles away, the major rivers reach to the far north and the Arctic Oceans, and not a terribly long paddle upstream to the west, you can portage to rivers leading to the Pacific. Only a short hop (in terms of Canadian scale, anyway) you find a glacier that feeds the Columbia river system as well as those systems leading to the arctic and Hudson’s Bay, giving a West/North/East divide. If you get really desperate, there is a small loop of the Milk river that pops up into Canada, before resuming its eventual outlet to the Gulf via the Mississippi.
http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.742214,-113.799133&spn=1.215057,2.268677&t=p&z=9
Comment by wally — December 12, 2008 @ 6:16 am
ptschett:
Serves you right for living on the “retired” geological side of the continent. It’s much more interesting on the “upstart young’n” side. :)
Comment by wally — December 12, 2008 @ 6:20 am
Nick Crane walked the European divide and wrote a book about his experience: Clear Waters Rising: A Mountain Walk Across Europe
Comment by Andrew — December 12, 2008 @ 6:28 am
Not sure the map maker has this quite right having Switzerland as a pure Atlantic country. I am sure that the Rhone starts at the top of Vallai canton and drains from there via Geneva to the Med, putting the dividing line to the north of Vallais.
Comment by Blackacre — December 12, 2008 @ 8:42 am
@Paolo: there’s another small portion of Italy that belongs to the Danube/Black Sear-Bassin: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lago_del_Gallo
Comment by Lars — December 12, 2008 @ 9:29 am
I must apologize for the mistake in Switzerland. I did the map very coarsely and did not realize about it. Anyway I thought the point was to raise the overall picture and the debate. Also, I did not include Russia because of the “Atlantic-Caspium” divide.
Comment by Javi — December 12, 2008 @ 11:10 am
As noted by Carlos Cunha and Luis, southern Portugal can be classified as Mediterranean, so divisions on map are wrong.
To Igor: No, Portugal does not have a Mediterranean coast (Mediterranean sea ends at Gibraltar Strait) but is strongly influenced by it.
Comment by Ray — December 12, 2008 @ 12:13 pm
The divisions on the map are not wrong, except that for southwest Switzerland. It is a watershed divide, not a climatic or biogeographic one. Another issue is the debate per se.
Comment by Javi — December 12, 2008 @ 12:55 pm
Interesting how Belarus is in the Mediterranean Watershed (mostly) and Switzerland is almost entirely in the Atlantic/Baltic Watershed.
Comment by SwissArmada — December 12, 2008 @ 2:30 pm
No problem Javi, just pointing the mistake out…
Also, the divide is hiked too, at least in France : the GR7 goes along it. It is a particularly interesting hike in the Massif Central (where I hiked it) because there the divide actually marks a climate difference, which shows on the landscape, quite different on the Mediterranean and Atlantic sides.
Comment by Linca — December 12, 2008 @ 5:07 pm
Another thing strange about this map- the Scottish-English border is marked, but not the Welsh-English one (or any other borders internal to states- not even Kosovo or Transnistria). Was that the USGS, do you think, or the European Soil Bureau?
Comment by baptist nunn — December 12, 2008 @ 5:53 pm
Another strange thing about this map- the Scottish-English border is marked , but not the Welsh-English one (or any other borders internal to states, not even Kosovo or Transnistria). Was that the USGS, do you think, or the European Soil Bureau?
Comment by baptist nunn — December 12, 2008 @ 5:57 pm
In my home country, the Netherlands there is not much talk about the continental divide. However, on the autoroutes in France and the Autobahnen in Germany, the divide between the Atlantic Bassin and the Mediterrenean is marked with big signs along the road. If I pass by this summer, and I remember, I will take a photgraph, upload it in Google earth and submit the link here.
Comment by Erik — December 12, 2008 @ 7:45 pm
Haha it’s good to see that Bayern isn’t part of Germany. We never have thought it was anyway.
Comment by Will — December 12, 2008 @ 7:52 pm
Jenny wrote: “…what might be more interesting to know is what is the LOWEST elevation point on either American or European divides.”
They both have an end at sea level. Which prompts several different thoughts:
1) This isn’t guaranteed of a divide; at least, not when there are more than three boundary seas involved. In North America, for example, if you consider the Gulf of Mexico drainage separately from the Atlantic, Pacific, and Arctic, the divide between the Gulf and the Arctic runs from some point in the Rockies to some point in the Appalachians.
2) There are also closed-path divides around the endorheic basins, such as the Caspian. These divides can’t ever touch the ocean, or the basin would fill!
3) I think that a divide that has one end at sea level will never go below sea level, since that would require part of an endorheic basin drain into the ocean. So the lowest point on any divide that reaches the ocean will be at that point, that is, at sea level.
4) The sea-level endpoint of a divide is fixed at the point where the two bodies of water are divided. That can be somewhat arbitrary; consider the separation between the Arctic and the Atlantic in North America. Of course even clearer situations, such as at Gibraltar, get more fuzzy when your scale is in meters rather than kilometers.
Comment by Ken — December 12, 2008 @ 8:37 pm
In Northern Ontario, the Atlantic/Arctic Watershed divide is boldly marked on all major highways with large wooden signs. Rather neat, actually.
Comment by Chris — December 12, 2008 @ 9:39 pm
For the record, I think watersheds are fascinating.
I love them, on any continent.
In my earlier comment I just wanted to point out that, as a European, I don’t have the impression that the American divide is ‘more famous’ somehow. Personally I know well about the American divide, but from American sources.
There’s actually not a trace of anti-Americanism in my veins, quite the contrary.
It was great to see comments from the maker of the map on this site, thanks Javi!
As for the absence of Russia, I don’t see it as a problem at all, but what is interesting is that I thik most people won’t even notice. Even though I never ntice people discussing “is Russia part of Europe” (except Russians), people don’t seem to notice when it’s missing (not talking about this paeticular crowd, but in general).
Thanks to all those that posted links to other maps, I downloaded all that I did’t already have.
Personally I find watersheds more significant geographic divisions than say flora & fauna.
And I believe that culturally speaking, they are second in importance only to religious areas.
Imho there are 3 broad cultural regions in Europe: protestants – catholic – orthodox.
What’s important about them is not the doctrines, but the cultural baggage that comes with them. It shaped the people in those respective regions.
To go astep further, I venture that there’s a fourth: islamic.
That is: North Africa and the Middle East. That region is historically almost inseperable from Europe, except for one element: religion. But what are Islam and Christians but different subgroups of the same monotheistic tradition?
Comment by igor — December 12, 2008 @ 10:31 pm
In other words, North Africa is imho more ‘European’ then ‘African’ because the Sahara is much more a natural frontier than the Mediterranean. If anything that sea brings people together, rather then seperate them.
Arabs and Europeans are much more alike than they realize (while Orthodox and Catholics are sometimes more different then they realize)
Sorry for going off-topic.
Comment by igor — December 12, 2008 @ 10:36 pm
Portugal is an Atlantic country with a Latin/Celtic culture and (in the South) a Mediterranean climate (like California for instance, as has been noted in a prior comment). It cannot be defined as a “Mediterranean country”, a phrase with a strong cultural meaning (at most it’s been a region of one for a few decades if you count when it was under Spanish dominion) and a quite literal geographical meaning as well. Having a Mediterranean climate and Latin roots are not enough to be a “Mediterranean country,” or else Central Chile would be (which obviously wouldn’t make any sense whatsoever, since it’s along the Pacific). You actually need to have a Mediterranean coast to, you know, be a Mediterranean country…
Claiming that Portugal is a Mediterranean country displays a level of ignorance of history and geography that boggles the mind. Besides the country having absolutely no Mediterranean coast, the history of Portuguese discovery and expansion is all about the Atlantic. It’s obvious to anyone who’s looked over the ocean off the soaring cliffs of Sagres. It silently translates to this day into even mundane things such as the common availability of cheap Brazilian mangoes in Portuguese supermarkets.
If like Igor you have no idea what you’re talking about, why not just shut up? Just a thought. I lived 4 years and a half in Portugal and, hey, someone is wrong on the Internet!
Comment by Olivier Travers — December 12, 2008 @ 11:00 pm
Portugal indeed has no Mediterranean coast – sorry for my dumb mistake.
It is still generally considered ‘Mediterranenan’ though.
If the mangoes are to arbitrate, then I suppose Holland is not on the North Sea (certainly not on the Atlantic anyway) but Indonesian (for the food) or Moroccan (for the price of hashisch from the Rif) or perhaps Turkish (for the tulips, originary form Turkey).
Can’t people just stay polite? Do you think calling names proves you superior?
Comment by igor — December 12, 2008 @ 11:15 pm
“It is still generally considered ‘Mediterranenan’ though.”
No it’s not, except by people who don’t know the country. I don’t think the topic of the discussion was about misperceptions across Europe.
The mangoes are an anecdote to illustrate Portugal Atlantic ties but apparently that went over your head.
If you didn’t post utter nonsense (which “Portugal is universally known in Europe as a Mediterranean country” is) while trying to portray authority you wouldn’t attract such ire. Your apology for your “dumb mistake” (your words) is accepted.
Comment by Olivier Travers — December 12, 2008 @ 11:26 pm
Igor doesn’t seem t know much about Europe. First of all there is an insurmountable divide between Europe and North Africa. It is not just racial and linguistic. Islam is an encompassing social/political/philosophical/cultural/religious thing in North Africa and totally incompatible with European culture.
Secondly I think Russia is definitely part of Europe, no matter how immense it is in size. I’ve been quite a few times in Moscow, Saint Petersberg and even Vladivostock. Although I am Southern European and do not speak Russian I feel more at home there than certainly for example in Turkey. (Or say New York, Detroit or even parts of Birmingham and London)
The influence of basins, river flows and natural boundaries has always been secondary to racial (ie tribal)and cultural cohesivenes and has only been slightly diluted but not overcome in Europe and North America by post-war 2 corrupt, careerist politicians and the concentrated tribally-based American media especially television.
Comment by Marco — December 13, 2008 @ 12:13 pm
Independently of what I think, Olivier, which is actually coincident with what Portuguese (or you) tend to think, it is a fact that Portugal is considered a Mediterranean country. See:
http://wikitravel.org/en/Mediterranean_Europe
Now the reasons for this can be varied, and I believe they are among those topics like calling “Latino” someone from Spain or Portugal (even when Basque is not a Latin language) and not someone from Rumania.
Comment by Javi — December 13, 2008 @ 12:16 pm
I’ve been to Russia and I strongly perceived it as a different culture, as much as USA.
Russia has clearly the size and history to be considered a continent in its own.
Not a part of Europe, at least no more. Russia has been strongly wasted (also socially) by the mongolian invasions, and only in 18th century tried to get back to the European family.
As the NewEngland went “far west” becoming truly american and less european, same thing when Russia moved the focus out St.Petersburg and to the “far east” (Siberia, etc).
I don’t have anything against americans or russians, I am not racist, I love all cultures.
Although, eurasiatism is a dangerous theory, based on few facts and proposing strange conclusions.
Though, I agree with Marco: watersheds and basins never meant too much in Europe. Sometimes they have been used to define borders, but such an approach is dumb and produces genocides.
People wandered across mountains, and now with motorways and such, they have even less importance in defining divides.
Comment by der Görzer — December 13, 2008 @ 12:33 pm
Hmm, as for this whole thing about Portugal being “considered a Mediterranean country” by certain people:
I think what these people are probably referring to is certain features prevalent in Mediterranean EUROPE (olive tree groves, bull-fighting, catholicism).
But the map above is a hydrographic and topographic map, right? So why do some of the comments in this thread divert focus so towards irrelevant topics such as Berbers, Islam, food, World War II and the (very subjective!) “feeling” or ambience one may experience on a visit to Moscow Istanbul?
These “feelings” can be described and analyzed better in other contexts, such as anthropology, geopolitics, history or traveller’s diaries.
Anyway, I really enjoy this blog. It’s fun and enlightening, and occasionally even educational for me! :-]
Comment by Roger — December 13, 2008 @ 12:45 pm
Ok, I guess I can answer my own question above:
The title of the posting was “Europe’s Continental Divide” and the caption was all about reflections on how various intra-European divions (= dividing lines) do not fully coinside with the hydrological divides.
In other words, the author wants (us?) to ponder how topography and hydrology differs from various human divisions of the Old Continent (Iron Curtain, Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox, &cetera &cetera bla bla bla). These are different tings, yet can be fun to ponder.
Comment by Roger — December 13, 2008 @ 1:21 pm
Görzer: Russia can hardly be “considered a continent of its own”. For very natural and obvious reasons. What you mean to is perhaps that you perceive Russia to be culturally unique and dissimilar to neighbouring cultures?
Comment by Roger — December 13, 2008 @ 1:27 pm
It’s so true, I always think of Portugal as a Mediterranean country.
Comment by Breen — December 13, 2008 @ 6:46 pm
Considering that Iberian Peninsula was part of the Roman Empire when Romans ruled over the Mediterranean Sea, calling it mare nostrum, our sea, there is no much doubt about the fact that Portugal, although facing the Atlantic, is a Mediterranean country.
However, since things never are what they seem to be, this week news were published in Portugal giving notice that Portuguese men’s DNA reveal 20% jewish ancesters and 11% magrebins.
Comment by Marina — December 13, 2008 @ 8:19 pm
You could explore the Orinioco/Amazon divide (if you haven’t already. They appear to have a shared river/canal in SW Venezuela
Comment by lordhutton — December 13, 2008 @ 9:03 pm
[...] 345 – Europe’s Continental Divide “America’s continental divide is known worldwide. However, nobody ever considers the presence of a [...] [...]
Pingback by Top Posts « WordPress.com — December 14, 2008 @ 12:19 am
The American continental divide referred to in the OP is the Great Divide. There are actually others which are discussed, though they are much less impressive, visually.
Regarding north-south continental divides in America, I live not terribly far away from one — the Northern Divide. I’m solidly in the Mississippi’s watershed, but if I drive up I-94, from Minnesota to North Dakota, I’ll cross the continental divide that separates the water flowing into the Gulf of Mexico (and, thence, into the Atlantic) from the water flowing into Hudson Bay (and thence, into the Arctic). One of the more interesting points in this divide is also its southernmost point — Brown’s Valley, the tip of the little jag of Minnesota that sticks out into South Dakota. It separates Lake Traverse from Big Stone Lake. Big Stone Lake is the headwaters of the Minnesota River, which flows roughly eastward, crossing the state to meet with the Mississippi in the Twin Cities (at a place called Mendota: “meeting of waters”). Lake Traverse is the headwaters of the Red River of the North, which flows northwards, forming the border between Minnesota and North Dakota, before crossing into Canada and eventually winding up in Lake Winnipeg, from which other rivers originate, heading generally for Hudson Bay or the Arctic Ocean.
The interesting thing about Browns Valley is that it contains the Traverse Gap — a marshy area connecting the two lakes. During spring snowmelt, it is not uncommon for the gap to flood, and water to flow over the divide, sometimes even reversing the flow within one of the lakes.
One upshot of Traverse Gap is that you can paddle through the marsh and then portage where needed to cross into the northern watershed. Every now and again, hardy souls canoe from the Twin Cities to Hudson Bay, going up the Minnesota and then down the Red. (Though “down” in this case is north.)
Watersheds are fascinating, and this is a very cool map. A suggestion for a future map: I’ve seen maps of Lake Superior’s watershed. It’s surprisingly puny, and explains why the lake’s level drops so dramatically during drought years.
Comment by Calli Arcale — December 14, 2008 @ 4:10 am
BTW, here’s a nifty link about continental divides, and particularly ones in North America:
http://www.nationalatlas.gov/articles/geology/a_continentalDiv.html
Comment by Calli Arcale — December 14, 2008 @ 4:12 am
Lars: there is a second area of Italy that is drained by the Danube: the headwaters of the Drava river lie in the eastern part of South Tyrol, near Toblac/Dobbiaco.
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=46.73,12.22&spn=0.1,0.1
Comment by Rich Rostrom — December 14, 2008 @ 9:01 am
[...] (Visto en Strange Maps) [...]
Pingback by División norte-sur europea « Un pequeño paso para Neil — December 14, 2008 @ 10:43 am
@Lars & Rich: correct, Livigno and Dobbiaco/Toblach are Italy’s most famous places in the Danube basin, which comprises two other small Italian territories: the Slizza valley in Friuli
(http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slizza) and part of the Val Venosta in Alto Adige/Südtirol (you find all of them here:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regione_geografica_italiana).
In my comment I reported the only Italian place which belongs to Atlantic Europe.
Comment by Paolo — December 14, 2008 @ 4:54 pm
>Considering that Iberian Peninsula was part of the Roman Empire when Romans ruled over the Mediterranean Sea, calling it mare nostrum, our sea, there is no much doubt about the fact that Portugal, although facing the Atlantic, is a Mediterranean country.
Absolutely, just like Scotland (sarcasm).
Comment by Olivier Travers — December 14, 2008 @ 6:16 pm
>Considering that Iberian Peninsula was part of the Roman Empire when Romans ruled over the Mediterranean Sea, calling it mare nostrum, our sea, there is no much doubt about the fact that Portugal, although facing the Atlantic, is a Mediterranean country.>
Does that make Colombia and Brazil Mediterranean countries because they were conquered by a Mediterranean country. And, since England was conquered by the Romans, does it automatically put the US in the Mediterranean realm?
Comment by Javi — December 14, 2008 @ 7:13 pm
[...] From Strange Maps: Europe’s Continental Divide Filed under: Media, Nature, Public Debate — chr1 @ 1:49 pm Tags: Europe’s Continental Divide, Strange Maps, The Reformation Full post here. [...]
Pingback by From Strange Maps: Europe’s Continental Divide « Chris Navin — December 14, 2008 @ 8:49 pm
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Pingback by The PHA : links for 2008-12-15 — December 15, 2008 @ 11:35 pm
Re: Continental Divides (CDs).
A ‘vernacular’ (informal) CD can be found at the northwest edge of the mile-high mining town of Bisbee, Arizona. Old Bisbee was carved into the southernmost slopes of the Mule Mountains, a couple miles north of Naco, Sonora, Mexico, and some miles east of Ft. Huachuca and south of the Tombstone theme park.
The Bisbee-Tombstone-Tucson highway now cuts under the Mules, a hole known as The Time Tunnel because one leaves the modern world when entering Bisbee. The old highway snaked over the Mules; at its crest is the so-called Continental Divide, known as such from peak mining days a century ago, when Bisbee was the biggest and richest city between New Orleans and San Francisco.
But why is a non-objective Continental Divide there? Racism. A century ago, Bisbee was ‘white’ at night. Orientals, Negroes, Mexicans, were all welcome to labor sweatily and cheaply in Bisbee during daylight hours. But come nightfall, their butts had *better* be on the other side of the Continental Divide. Or else.
Do any readers here know of other such ‘vernacular’ CDs around the world? Is there a so-called CD in your neighborhood? Where and why?
Comment by RioRico — December 18, 2008 @ 2:51 am
We all have our limitations don’t we! If it’s about a divide, what I really would like to see mapped was corruption, I think that would give us an excellent divide. In Portugal as my fellow countrymen know that would bring a great insight to the real divide of the place, but as everyone knows as well that’s pretty impossible to map. A great Christmas to everybody on either side of the divide. Peace. Paz
Comment by Ermenio — December 18, 2008 @ 11:01 am
Related is this map originally from the German Wikipedia:
It shows the watersheds of Europe’s major rivers and the basic divides between large seas (though it seems to get confused in Italy and Greece).
Comment by Solomon — December 18, 2008 @ 11:28 pm
In fact, I recently blogged about the continental divide in North Dakota (Arctic/Atlantic).
So it is not quite true that no one ever mentions it. ;-)
Comment by Chas S. Clifton — December 18, 2008 @ 11:47 pm
One interesting note about the European divide: In part of Switzerland, the boundary between the French- and German-speaking parts of the country follows the divide.
Comment by Alex G — December 20, 2008 @ 2:59 pm
To some of you, this map is a geological map of elevations showing where water will flow when it rains. Will it end up in one sea or the other ?
It hasn’t got anything to do with with people and whether they use olive oil or if they were romans in the past.
Same for the East West US divide, it isn’t about elections or food either.
Comment by EspressoFrog — December 29, 2008 @ 7:01 am
oh dear… well, Portugal is indeed considered a Mediterranean type of country by the people who are important (ie, the Portuguese Turism Office) :)
Indeed, if you have lived here for 4+1/2 years you should know Portugal is very diferent from South to North. The South coast is considered a mediterranean type of coast, against the Atlantic part.
And if we are speaking divides on Europe I would be interested in the wine/beer divide (producers). It is moving up North these days… I wonder where it will stop?
Comment by Ricardo Reis — January 14, 2009 @ 10:55 pm
thanks for all info.
Comment by top — January 23, 2009 @ 9:07 pm
The divide isn’t correct!!
What it seems to be confused is the Mediterranean basin with the Black Sea basin!! These two seas are connected only by a narrow strait (Bosphorus and Dardanels)!!
So big part of East Europe will belong to Black Sea instead of Mediterranean Sea!!
In fact European countries that can truly be considered “MEditerranean” are of course Spain, Italy, part of France, Croatia, Greece annd Turkey!
Comment by Giovanni — February 1, 2009 @ 11:32 am
Interestingly enough, this continental divide is indicated by a large sign on French A6 motorway. It mentions the North and Mediterranean seas.
Does anyone knows of other such signs along the divide?
Comment by Patrick — February 14, 2009 @ 10:17 am
To Alex G (78)
No you are quite wrong. The water divide separates more or less the South from the North, while the langage divide separates the East from West.
Comment by christiane — March 5, 2009 @ 7:57 am
quite uninteresting… we europeans learn this in elementary school
Comment by karl.kokain — April 27, 2009 @ 11:04 am
Vielen Dank
Comment by moon — July 3, 2009 @ 5:31 am
Muchas gracias
Comment by sun — July 4, 2009 @ 7:58 am